Susan
Welcome to Who We Are Inside: A Cupid Podcast. I am so excited to be talking to uh one of our good friends, Katelan, today about a topic that she has talked about a lot, and one that I think until I started speaking with her about it, I wasn't as aware of as I could have been. And so today, Katelan is going to be talking to us about transracial and transcultural adoption, which is a child of one race or ethnic group placed with parents of a different race or ethnic group. Katelan is a passionate advocate for diversity, equity, and inclusion, and hopes to increase the amount of understanding and empathy in the world. As a transracial adoptee, first generation immigrant, and first generation college student, her unique perspective drives her commitment to amplify marginalized voices and affect positive change. She's currently pursuing her masters of public administration and serves as the admissions and recruitment coordinator at the College of Business Administration. Additionally, she chairs three vital committees - the PIT business deans EDIA committee, the PIT business staff engagement committee and the provos office year of dialogue and discourse RFP subcommittee. Her journey as not and her journey as an adoptee and POC fuels her empathy and dedication to leveling the playing field for all. Recently accepted into a funded PhD program, Katelan's drive to expand her knowledge underscores her determination to create a more equitable society through means of hopefully researching social mobility and applying such knowledge to public policy. Wow, Katelan, thank you so much for being here today.

Katelan
Yeah, thank you for having me. That's that's a lot.

Susan
And we could talk more about all of the amazing things that you are doing and have done at PIT. So I thought that we could get started. You know, I gave a general definition of what transracial, transcultural adoption is, but walk us through how you define it.

Katelan
Yeah, so I think the definition you gave was pretty spot-on. It's, you know, again, mainly when you have a child of one race and their adopted parents are of another race. Um, for me, um, I am Vietnamese, but I was adopted into a white family. I also have a Chinese sister that was also transraially adopted. So, I think the the definition that you gave of where it's one child adopted into the race of another is pretty spot on, but again that's not necessarily exclusive to having white parents you know there's been there are a lot of adopes who are born into black families for example or Latin-x families etc. So any kind of mix to where you have one child of one race and adopted parents of another.

Adriana
That's excellent. First time I heard Katelan's story I was so um moved by when she very openly talked about her journey. So, Katelan, can you tell us a little bit about how you got to where you are because it's amazing.

Katelan
Yeah. Okay. I think it's I think it's always interesting when you like ask someone to like tell their full story because I think there's always that part of where you want to be humble, but also I think especially as a woman, I think we should brag more about our accomplishments. So, as I stated, I'm adopted from Vietnam. I don't necessarily know the full details of why I was put up for for adoption. The story I was told was that my birth parents kept me for 5 months, could no longer afford to take care of me. And so then they gave me up for adoption. However, I will say that's also a very common story told to a lot of adoptees to where you know it's and I think sometimes the intention behind it is noble, you know, so that you don't want to just say like you were thrown away or whatever, however you want to say it. And it's to kind of soften that blow. But I also think it's important for people to know the origins of their story. My sister, even more so, as I stated, she's a Chinese adoptee. She actually has like no knowledge. Actually, the police found her abandoned in a building and took her in. So I do have like an official Vietnamese birth certificate. So, I do at least have those details. I don't necessarily think that my quote origin story is completely accurate based off of some like records I've seen related to my adoption. But again, I can't, you know, completely know. So I was adopted when I was 15 months old by my parents. Um, they were a white middle-aged family. I was adopted I think when they were in their early 40s. Um, they were unable to have children of their own. Um, and so they started looking at adoption and specifically my mom did want to do an international adoption. I can't say I necessarily agree with her reasoning which at the time was that with a domestic adoption you were more likely to have to give quote the child back right and so my mom didn't necessarily want to go through that process. I can get into some further ethical considerations later. So my parents did primarily pursue international adoption. But I think my main like point of contention maybe is like identity, right? Because again, I'm Vietnamese, but I grew up with white parents and so I've never exactly fit in necessarily with quote like Asian people. In fact, I've actually been shunned by them for being so American, for speaking like English and, you know, not even though I am a first gen immigrant, I'm the first generation, you know, of my family to be here, I didn't necessarily have the same experience as other firstgen immigrants, right? I remember being in elementary school and taking a test and having to fill out my demographics, right? Like what race are you and not knowing actually like what race should I am I? And I asked my mom and I feel really bad for like whatever census guy had to see my race change because she told me to put white actually on my test, you know, and then eventually I was like, "Oh, like I'm not white even though my parents are white." I am Vietnamese and I've always been very proudly Vietnamese, but I remember that kind of being an early point to where I was kind of confused on what my identity is exactly. This kind of, you know, I always was the Asian, you know, the like stereotypical smart, you know, all these stere stereotypes that were given to me, even though I'm horrible at math. I also don't play any instruments, you know, but I was the smart Asian girl um in high school. And I remember specific moments to where there were, you know, racial incidents or microaggressions due to me. Again, it was even though I didn't necessarily feel Asian, it was like, "No, you are Asian." Prior to me being adopted, my mom actually knew a pastor who hated Vietnamese people, who told my mom that they would not be welcomed to his church if they adopted me because he had had a friend pass away in the Vietnam War, even though the Vietnam War was a couple decades before I was even born, you know. Um, and he did actually um eventually changed once he met me realized I'm an innocent child who had nothing to do with this war. But you know so even before I was even before I even had mental awareness there were like incidents that exposed me to my race. I remember being in high school and getting my picture taken for the yearbook and being told that I should open my eyes more and the same thing happened to my sister years later when she started high school. So again it was you are Asian, right? Even though you have white parents. Then when I went to college. The college I went to, of all places, actually had a really strong partnership with Vietnam. So, all of a sudden, I go from being, you know, one of the few Asian people, definitely one of the only Vietnamese people to going to a college with a large Vietnamese population and kind of wanting that connection. You know, there's a lot of research on the importance of racial mirrors and I didn't necessarily, you know, have that to the fullest extent. So, I was kind of craving like wanting to get to know my culture more, wanting to get to know other Vietnamese people. Well, in this case, it would have been Vietnamese girls since it was all women's college more. And I remember like instantly a girl coming up to me and trying to speak to me in Vietnamese. And I'm like, I'm sorry, I don't speak Vietnamese and the conversation was just shut down, you know. And so, I actually did not make like a single Asian or Vietnamese friend like during my undergraduate experience even though, again, I was surrounded all of a sudden by all these Asian people. And so that was kind of my first like identity crisis, I guess you could say, because I was like, where do I fit in? You know, because the whole thing about race is that it is a social construct and it's going to be pushed upon you. Even if it's not necessarily what you identify with, a lot of biracial people deal with similar experiences of, you know, which group quote like do I belong in? And so for me it's I've always even right now at the University of Pittsburgh something I'm fighting for is belonging right specifically for Asian people just because historically there has been a lack of a sense of belonging at the University of Pittsburgh we are working on it but even sometimes now I'm like who am I as a Asian person who grew up in a white household to be advocating for Asian belonging and to be talking about how certain Asian experiences should be championed when I didn't even you know grow up in that culture So, that was a really long answer, but hopefully that helped.

John
What do you want What do you want people to kind of learn or take from your experience?

Katelan
I would say that there are so many hidden identities that we don't often think about, but that by being more empathetic and taking a step back at times to listen, you'd be surprised what you can, you know, learn. So, specific to me, um, you know, even if I wasn't necessarily like transraially adopted, like if I was just adopted by Asian parents. There's so much trauma that goes into being adopted. There's so many different like parenting things I feel like you have to think about when you have an adopted child, right? And especially in college with there being so much emphasis on identity and who you are, sometimes that can be really complicated for people of different identities. And so I would say that's probably something.

John
What would you say to people who are from Vietnam who know the language or you know who look at you and see what you're presenting as.

Katelan
So I actually went through a similar incident. I think it was like the end of last year. So Pitt actually does have an affinity group for adopted people. It is PACE, the Pitt Adopted Community for Education and it's open to all adoptees, adopted parents, first parents, people interested in adoption. And so we actually held a documentary screening of Geographies of Kinship I think is what it was called and there was a person there who is actually Vietnamese and she spoke the language right so a little bit of background too so when I was young my parents actually did try for a while to expose me to Vietnamese culture so we actually drove an hour away and we went to a Vietnamese church and for the most part they were very welcoming but something they wouldn't stop um emphasizing to my parents is that she needs to learn Vietnamese. And I do understand how language is, you know, a common denominator and it's really important to culture. But it also was frustrating because that's why my parents stopped taking me to that church. That's why they stopped exposing me because they felt like they were constantly being shamed for me not speaking Vietnamese. And so, actually last year at this documentary, I had a student that was like, you know, like Pitt has, you know, Vietnamese classes that you can learn, you know, and I'm like, well, is also a tonal language which is like almost it's not impossible but it's very difficult to learn tonal languages you know but another thing too when it comes to cultural identity is that for adopes transraially you're not but especially for transracial adoptees is there's a lot of trauma surrounding culture right because it's this missing piece of you um that you are trying to reclaim and so for example my partner and I, we celebrate Lunar New Year I didn't grow up celebrating it. But to me, it's part of my culture. And like every year almost like I make Vietnamese food and I always end up in tears actually because again it's like this weird traumatic missing part of me that I can't necessarily explain, but it makes me very sad, but it's also, you know, an experience that makes me happy that I'm reclaiming my culture. And so sometimes it's really difficult for me when I have people say, "Why don't you learn Vietnamese?" Like there's all these opportunities for you to do it, but it's also there's this trauma that I have to work through, you know, and it's similarly to why I haven't been back to Vietnam yet. I do have the opportunity to go with Pitt business and I think it's something I'm interested in. But I want to make sure I'm in a mentally, emotionally okay space before I go to confront that part of me, basically. So, I would say again, I think it just comes to being considerate. And if someone says that it's fine, it's okay, they don't want to just leave it at that basically. Or either how about you include them in other cultural aspects of being Vietnamese because it's not just the language. There's holidays, there's food, there's so many other ways that you can involve someone in the culture without them having to speak the language, especially in the United States where we're multiple generations in at this point, too. So, not everyone is going to speak Vietnamese, even if they grew up in a Vietnamese family.

Adriana
Katelan, you mentioned more than once the word trauma. And I would like to follow up with you asking what is like the the hardest part of this trauma feeling that you think people don't understand. It's inside you. We are trying to go back to our push back pin buttons and what can you disclose to us about this?

Katelan
Yeah. So I think the hardest part, well, one is that there aren't that many adoption focused therapists out there that specifically have a focus on it, which to me is like crazy considering how long adoption has been around. I mean, like for I think it was mainly South Korea, that was actually like a prime like thing that they used to market for South Korea for a long time was how many adoptees they had and eventually I believe like once the UN or once something was created they were like oh this actually isn't a good thing you know so adoption's been around for so long but it's never been talked about which I think is partially why it's been traumatic for so many people is because it's not talked about and it's also you're expected to be grateful is a big part of adoption trauma is that one you were relinquished by your birth parents, right? And you have no idea who they were. You have no idea of your medical history, what they were like. Did you look like them? All these questions that people who aren't adopted don't have to think about, but you do. But then you are expected to be grateful for that because it's like, oh, you're like I've been told it's like, oh, your parents must love you. And I'm like, well, I hope they do. I hope they'd love me either way, you know? Or it's like, especially since I come from a developing country, it's like Oh, well, like they saved you from Vietnam, you know, which it's like there's so many successful people from and in Vietnam right now, you know, which is another misunderstanding. And you're constantly forced to deal again like with this trauma of a missing piece of you where there's a good chance that you don't have questions to it. Or there might be people who have knowledge to your answers, but they won't give it to you. So I think that's been a very difficult part about my trauma is that there aren't any answers to questions I might have, but there aren't that many people that know how to navigate those questions because again, there aren't that many adoption trauma focused therapists out there. But then it also goes to where if there was an adoption focused therapist, should they be an adopted person, you know, who understands? And so it kind of becomes this cycle of where where do we begin to even start tackling this? And I do think that There's actually been a lot of knowledge increase, especially with transracial adoption. I'm part of a transracial adoption group on Facebook and it's full of parents asking like should I move to a more diverse area even, you know, would that help my child to have more racial mirrors or how do I celebrate this respectfully? You know, all these different questions of trying to kind of tackle these hard questions as early as possible. For is just not even talking about them at all. In certain states it's actually so they will actually change your birth certificate to your adopted parents' names. A lot of adoption a lot a lot of adoptees have their record sealed. So they have no access to their original birth certificates to their biological parents information even though it's out there legally. They can't even access their own records, you know. So again, it's just these huge blank question marks with no one to help you guide through them. I would say has probably been one of the hardest parts of my like trauma related to adoption.

John
I'm going to make a statement. Everybody could I know Susan's like uh oh, John's going to make a statement, but it sounds like to me, and correct me if I'm wrong. Cut this out if you need to. This sounds like racial bias to me. It sounds like you're looking a lot of people in society, whether they're Vietnamese or not, are taking a look at you making all these assumptions and judgment calls based on how you look and how you present and then and then they're assuming certain things throwing expectations at you know I expect you to act a certain way and be a certain way because of how you look and it's causing a trauma. Am I, is that, does that make sense are you guys seeing it a different way?

Katelan
I think that's definitely part of it and I say that because so a few weeks ago I was having breakfast at a work event with a colleague of mine Carlton Scott and I was telling him about these experiences and I was also talking about my sister. So another thing that comes like especially common with transracial adoption is rejection of your like racial identity, right? So my sister, she's adopted from China, but we don't believe that she's completely Chinese. She looks biracial to some degree. And so our adopted dad, he's German. And so for the longest time, my sister actually claimed to be German. not Chinese, even though like if you look at her, there's nothing to assume she's German at all, you know. And I was talking about my experiences. I was talking about my sister's experience to Carlton Scott. He works in the Dietrich school now. And he was like, you know, actually what you're talking about is really similar to the black community with a lot of identity and racial issues that they're dealing with, which I thought was very interesting because I had actually never considered that. So what you said kind of reminds me of that. So I do think That's at least part of it, right? I do also there's this idea in, well there's two ideas in the adopty community and one of them is the primal wound that all adopes carry the primal wound which stems from them being separated from their biological families. Now I don't know if there's any research or science behind it but it is like an idea. There's a book I don't remember who it's by but it's called the Primal Wound that explores this identity or this idea with adoption. And then there's also it's called come the fog, which is like the fog of adoption being a holy good thing that you should be thankful for. No matter what kind of situation you're adopted in or situation you come from, you should be grateful. And so coming out of the fog is kind of when a adopted person takes those first steps to really explore all the complexities of adoption. So I do think that there is the specific to adoption relinquishment, quote abandonment part, but I also think there is that racial component due to me being transraially adopted.

Susan
You talked about the the primal wound and this big blank space and the way that I'm experiencing what your your story is that anytime someone asks you about specifically, you know, speaking Vietnamese or learning Vietnamese that it's really just putting you in the center of that open space and like kind of ripping open that wound. And also making it sound like you you in order to be truly Vietnamese, you need to speak the language and that somehow you are less Vietnamese because you don't. How does that land for you? What do you think about when I say those things?

Katelan
I don't want to say I love it cuz is a horrible thing, but I love it. Like I think you actually especially relating it to the wound, I think that is a great way to phrase it. Because that that definitely like echoes through me and makes me think about a lot of things. So I think you definitely nailed that part. But yeah, I think that's a great point is that there are always all these opportunities for that wound, you know, to be reopened. So whether it's speaking you know, whether or not I speak Vietnamese or another common one, you know, especially again grow growing up in in South Carolina. Not that many Asian people, you know, it starts with like, "Where are you from?" And I'm like, "Oh, I'm from Westminster. I'm near Clemson." It's like, "Oh, no. Where are you really from?" It's like, "Okay, well, now I have to explain everything." It's like, "Oh, like I'm from Vietnam, but I was adopted, you know." And then it's like, then again, it goes into that, "Oh, your parents must love you. I bet you're so happy to be here and so thankful, you know, and it's like, I mean, I am happy and thankful for my life, but it doesn't have to be related, you know, to that." So again, there's always all these opportunities that in ways you might not expect or as I stated, there's so much emphasis on identity in higher education and asking students to talk about that. Or you think about like family trees in elementary school, you know, and it's like for me it's like I do know my adopted parents and I could put them but what about this my biological parents, you know, like where do I include them? And you know, that comes up in lots of different family styles. So yeah, there's always opportunities for that. wound, you know, to be reopened and we don't necessarily have quote doctors, you know, ready to help figure out how to close that wound quite yet.

John
What can you tell people like you adoptes?

Katelan
I think it's I think for one, it's every everyone's going to have their own individual identity. I think that one narrative shouldn't be pushed on another. So, even if you are extremely glad that you were adopted, I don't think that you should necessarily have that same expectation for everyone else. You know, it's it's really interesting when you look at even let's say like abusive households, right? Where you have an adopted person who was adopted into an abusive household. It's still you should be thankful even though your parents might be, you know, emotionally, mentally, or even physically like abusive towards you. At least you're adopted. At least you're not where you were, you know. So, I think for one, not necessarily pushing a narrative just because that's your narrative. onto someone else. I think too for me something that I've come to realize at the end of the day I identify as Katelan Hudson, you know, and myself. And even though in this society it is impossible to ignore certain parts of your identity, I have to also just champion myself for who I am. And so again, it's an individual journey, but just have to kind of look at your yourself and your experiences as your identity versus trying to break it down into these kind the more niche titles.

Adriana
I'm sure that our listeners are thinking and they have a lot of questions. So, one question that I have is probably a lot of our listeners potentially could adopt a child. And you talked about belonging. You talked about education. Basically, if people knew better, wouldn't react the way they do. So, I'm just curious, are there any books for children that the parents could use to educate this children early on how to be behave or how to process all this information?

Katelan
Yeah. So, I'm going to start kind of on a tangent, too, for people looking at adoption. One that in my opinion, I think reunification should always be the top priority. So if you you know if you have a child in foster care for example there are like a lot of cultural misunderstandings too in adoption. So for example Haiti has a very large number of adopees right they also have a large number of quote orphans but in Haiti because they have so many natural disasters often what families will do they will leave their children at quote orphanages but they plan to return to them later. But these children unfortunately are actually end up being adopted out to other countries. There's also a very large black market for an adoption. So, I think one it's like for me I think reunification should always be the top priority. If not reunification, I think including the biological family if able, I'm completely understanding sometimes there's situations, you know, where maybe that isn't the most healthy for the child or the biological family to be included. But I think if possible including the biological family in activities as much as possible, keeping that communication open you know coordinating a plan with the other family on how we're going to manage this together for the health of the child. I think adoption shouldn't be there to fulfill your own want of being a parent. I think it should be something that you genuinely want to kind of help this other family or this child, you know, navigate what whatever complex, you know, situation they're going through and that's why you want to adopt them because it is for the better of the child, not necessarily for your own needs. So, I did want to like cover with that first. I do know I can't name them off the top of my head, but I do know that there are some new children's books actually on adoption, you know, actually helping the adopted child go through these processes. And then again, there's beginning to be more knowledge for parents who are looking to adopt or who are adopted parents. Angela Tucker is a great person. She actually has a podcast um where she actually interviews adoptes and she actually interviewed an adoptee in Pittsburgh. She I think I think she's the owner of like 111 Juice Bar or something. And she's adopted. So Angela Tucker is a great person. And then again I think right now adoptes are specifically in a moment of advocacy. So I know like even on TikTok which I will say I'm not on TikTok, but there is like adoptee talk apparently like on TikTok where it's like a lot of adoptees talking about their experiences. There's Facebook groups as I stated that I'm a part of to where you know people who are interested in adopted in adoption can go and ask these questions. But I think when you're doing that you need to be mindful of the adopees bandwidth and what you're asking what they're willing to give. But I do think that there's a new wealth of knowledge out there currently,

Susan
I will say that in my in preparation for this interview, I found um a great book that uh I'm curious to think see what your opinion is on. It's called What White Parents Should Know About Transracial Adoption: An Adopes Perspective on Its History, Nuances, and Practices. What parents wish they'd known before they adopted. How your child might feel feel and experience the world differently than you. All about microaggressions, labeling and implicit bias. Is that something if you're feel if you feel comfortable that you wish your parents maybe had had that resource growing up or or do you feel like they navigated it pretty well for the resources that they had?

Katelan
I mean, I think it could have only helped them, you know, for one. You know, I do think that thankfully they don't listen to anything, so I don't have to worry about them listening to this. So I will say I do think that my dad navigated adoption better in a way, you know, because it he he always was like very like be yourself if they're being racist. Like if I were to like not that I'm advocating for violence, but if I were to punch someone for it as a kid, he would have been like, "Yeah, do it." You know, you know, so he was always making sure to champion us for who we were, but it also was never like a point, you know, like it was never like you're different, you know, like I was just always like his daughter. and he showed like a picture of my sister and I to everyone that he kept in his wallet, you know, whereas my mom, I would say I think that book could have really benefited her. You know, in my opinion, my mom specifically adopted for a more selfish reason. What she specifically told my sister and I was that she wanted someone to love her. You know, versus wanting to love a child, she wanted someone to love her. So at a certain point, you know, when you're no longer longer that child that's dependent on your parent. You know, that relationship with her was kind of lost. And I think another aspect of that is that on my birth certificate, I have a mother listed, but I don't have a father listed, you know. And to me, I never actually thought about the father part, but I always thought about the mother part. And I also think I've read some similar things. You know, it's your mother that carries you for 9 months. It's like your mother you literally exchange like cells and everything with. And so for me, it was really difficult. navigating that mother daughter relationship in the first place even if I you know hadn't been adopted because again my mom wanted someone to love her not necessarily you know willing for that to to love something else to love her and then on top of that I had all these questions about my mom and for my mom whenever I would mention these it was always like but I'm your mom you know she didn't necessarily grasp why it was affecting me so much and to that point. I never felt like I had the degree of like a mother daughter relationship that I was seeking. And I don't know if that's necessarily specific to like the mother daughter relationship I had or the one I was missing with my adopted or with my biological mom. And so too with my mom though, I always try to be considerate of that she's a human for the first time too. And so I know something my mom always talked about was how her parents were never affectionate and they never hugged her. They never said I love you, you know, and I'm someone that's like there's multiple love languages, you know, but I also think there's something to be said about telling your child, you know, you love them. So, that's something I've been working through as an adult who's considering having children, you know, in the next few years. And I even saw that online. So, again, it's everyone's first time being a human. And so, why I don't think that while I don't think that necessarily excuses some of my experiences I had with my mom. I think it does make me look at her as a person. It was her first time being a mom. You know, she had her own experience. My mom is 68. She turnes 69 this year, you know, and so she didn't necessarily have therapy or someone to help her with her own trauma that she had for, you know, from her own parents. So, how is she going to navigate parenting while still carrying this load that definitely wasn't talked about then? So, Yeah. Wow.

John
That gave me feelings.

Susan
Well, I almost I'm I there were a lot of things that kind of came up for me when you were when you were telling that that story, which was this idea of color blindness, but then also like history blindness. Like it it sounded as if your history in your parents' eyes and I'm generalizing here, so let me know if I'm getting this right, but like your history started when they brought you home. Like you had they you had no history before then. And that's I think speaks to what you were saying earlier about, you know, your records being sealed. It's like you are getting completely untethered from the history of your familial experience that so many of us, you know, are so fascinated by that we spend money on uh DNA tests or, you know, we we look at archives to figure out who we are based on those generations that came before us. Um, and what I'm hearing is that an acknowledgment of that as a loss and a recognition that you can have both a biological mother and a um adopted mother and have room to love both of them and one doesn't take away from the other. It was almost it sounded almost like a like your mother's behavior was out of a fear that if if she acknowledged your other mom, then that made her like less of a mom.

Katelan
No, I think that nails it on the head, you know. Because another conversation that makes me think about that again, that fear, right? Well, as I stated originally, that's why my parents adopted internationally is because they didn't want to go through potentially, you know, having to quote give back a domestically adopted child. You know, I was talking to my mom a couple weeks ago about like when do you tell a person they're adopted? So, I mean obviously I kind of knew from day one cuz I didn't look like my parents, you know, but for like a domestic adoptees or like same race adoptees, let's say. And she was saying that she wouldn't tell a kid if possible until they were 18 that they were adopted or who their parents were. And then if it was she said if it was then it would be their choice if they wanted to reach out to their biological parents, you know. But you know, there's that fear before then of if I tell my child when I haven't told them, is it going to isolate them? Are they going to prefer that other family? Like all these different things. But again, I think that comes from a sense of fear.

Adriana
What I would like to put at the table for us to ponder here is the fact that you had an adopted sister as well.

Katelan
Mhm.

Adriana
And from another race or ethnicity, we don't know.

Katelan
Correct. Yeah, she's Well, she's Well, she's from China. We don't know if she's completely Chinese, but she's at least from China. So,

Adriana
So did it change your relationship for the better with your sister? The fact that you could talk about topics that only you and your sister would be able to talk about.

Katelan
Yeah. I mean, I think it's like interesting because it's definitely something now that we like joke about, you know, I mean, like not only were we both adopted, we were also again like one of the few Asian people, you know, so that was definitely a I guess kind of bonding, you know, experience. I think it is interesting, especially since I'm older than her and she had just a completely and In a lot of ways, even though we had the same parents, she had a different experience, right? So, like my parents actually did no cultural immersion, you know, with my sister. And again, she had that rejection of identity. She was also quote probably the good child and I was the bad child or as my mom says, the independent one. And so, it's been interesting cuz I feel like she's she's finally getting to that point now where she's just even doing racial acknowledgement. When she got into college, she's she graduated a couple years ago, but it wasn't until college where she started even like being proud of being Chinese, you know? And so for me, it's like interesting because I feel like I've been through it. I've done my own education kind of and went through it. So now I can kind of help her when she's ready to come out of that fog. But I also don't blame any adoptee or my sister for being in that fog because it is a sense of safety and what you know and to exit it, you have to be ready to ask these questions that might not have answers. I do know some adoptes that did have like biological siblings or not biological siblings, they had siblings that were the biological kids of their adopted parents, you know. And I can't speak to that experience because that wasn't my situation. But it is interesting to kind of learn and hear about those experiences if there were any preferences, you know, towards the biological children versus the adopted children or what it was like to have a sibling that could be if they're transraially adopted. the PO for example. So I can't speak to those experiences but I think you know in a way it definitely helped mine and my sister's you know relationship if only because we only had each other to talk to about those experiences.

Susan
So I feel like we've covered so much and I've learned so much about adoption and even the ethics behind it. And I loved I want to come back to this because I feel like this is so central as I'm navigating kind of early motherhood of you know why do you want to be a parent? And I would offer that that I I'm taking that for myself and for for everyone you know that this idea of I want to be a parent because I want to be loved. What a responsibility to put on a child um as you're navigating all of this you know trauma. and experience and and trying to find yourself to be in some ways I guess responsible for somebody else's feelings of selfworth. That is just, I just want to acknowledge that that must have been incredibly challenging and I really appreciate your grace and also honesty in sharing that. And I think about sometimes when I you know, really do feel like I need that love for my kid in that moment, but I'm going to remember what you said and remember that it is not their job to love me and show up for me in that way. I need to have other people to do that for me. So, I just wanted to say thank you for that. The kind of theme of this podcast, uh, the thing that we're trying to use as a common thread is this idea that if we had a pin back button, one of those big obnoxious metal round buttons, that we could wear on our sleeve or our chest um to help explain our identity to others without having to explain it. So, for me it was I'm a deeply feeling person. So, like if you see me randomly crying or I start yelling, I'm not saying it's an excuse. I'm just saying you might learn a little bit more about why that is happening. So, I know I mean obviously it's really hard to wrap up the complexity of what we've been talking about into a button. But if you if you could make one that you could wear to let people know what you really want them to know without you having to go through your whole life story and where are you from, but where are you really from? But you don't speak the language, all of that. What would it be?

Katelan
As you said, that's a very complex, difficult thing. I think the first things that come to my mind is maybe just I'm just me. you know, because again after this whole journey of like with my identity, it kind of comes down to just I'm Katelan Hudson. I'm a person. I've had these experiences, but they don't, you know, they're all individual parts of me, but they don't necessarily all impact me the same way, right? Like I don't know, just I'm just me. You don't have to delve deeper than that necessarily. If I want to give that information to you, I will. But just please accept me for who I am and the relationship or experiences that we can have together without having to get into these complexities of identity.

Susan
That is so beautiful. I'm just me. I love it.

Adriana
Wow.

Music
I still have stories to tell.