Susan
Welcome to Who We Are Inside, a Cupid Podcast. Today, I, can I say finally? I can say finally, right? I finally have Dr. Ahmed Gouman here with me today. Dr. Gouman is a clinical psychologist who serves as the executive director for the University Counseling Center at the University of Pittsburgh. Ahmed earned his PsyD in clinical psychology from PCOM in Philly, and he also holds an MBA in general business. In his clinical work, Ahmed utilizes an integrative approach to humanistic and cognitive behavioral therapy. He specializes in positive psychology, which is something we all need right now, thank goodness, and uses a strengths-based approach rooted in positive psychotherapy with his clients. His areas of interest are broad and so dear to my heart, and they include self-esteem, happiness, motivation, resilience, meaning and purpose, religious and spiritual identity, and multicultural concerns. Ahmed, thank you so, so much for being with us today.

Ahmed
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

Susan
It's been an adventure.

Ahmed
It has been.

Susan
But here we are.

Ahmed
It has been.

Susan
So back when we first started kind of discussing having you on the podcast, you had talked about the perspective of gratitude. And at the time, I was reading Brene Brown's Atlas of the Heart,

Ahmed
I've read that; it's a good book.

Susan
And really just diving into her work. And she talks a lot about gratitude and joy and how it sort of all intermingles. And so where I'd like to start, if it's okay with you, is to read you a couple definitions of gratitude that I found and sort of see where it takes us.

Ahmed
Sure.

Susan
So you actually defined gratitude, and don't ask me where I found this quote, because I cannot remember, as a felt sense of wonder, thankfulness, and appreciation for the small and big things that come up in life, which I love. Brene, who is my soulmate, I think I might say that on every podcast and hope that someday she hears it, is that gratitude is an emotion that reflects our deep appreciation for what we value and what brings meaning to our lives, and what makes us feel connected to ourselves and to each other. And then I found this other one by Robert Emmons, which I thought kind of summed it up well, but definitely doesn't have the nuance of what the other two were, which is, gratitude is affirmation of the goodness and is part of figuring out where that goodness comes from, or noticing where the goodness is from, is the gratitude part. So I'm curious, with all of those kind of swirling around, would you still define gratitude as a felt sense of wonder and thankfulness, or is there more to it now?

Ahmed
Yeah, no, I mean, absolutely. I mean, I mean, it's everything. It's what makes people happy. It's what makes us happy, right? And, you know, we live in a society that's very capitalistic and commercialized, and we're led to believe that we need to attain these different things to make us happy. And then for those that are able to attain those things, you attain them and you're like, I'm still not happy, right? And whatnot. So, and what a lot of research has shown is that the number one thing that actually makes people happy is a practice of gratitude. And it's not as simple as just being like, I'm grateful for this, I'm grateful. It's a practice, like you have to put time into it, you have to sustain it. But when you have that kind of perspective of it, like within everything you do, it can make us feel, you know, a lot happier, a lot more content in life, obviously a lot more grateful. And it's really helpful with perspective taking, right? That's important too. Like a lot of times, you know, we have our own perception of things because we focus on the things that we don't have, or that we want, and we lose sight of the things that we have. And these messages are sent again through society for kids and stuff. So they grow up thinking they need to acquire these certain things to be happy. And research shows over and over again that that's just not true.

Susan
So how do you define a practice of gratitude? Like what does that look like?

Ahmed
Yeah. And there's so many ways to practice gratitude, but it has to, first and foremost, it has to be like genuine, like it has to be authentic. And I think that takes a lot of reflection on the things that we have. And it takes perspective taking too, right? And focusing on the things we have, having gratitude for the things we have. But I think it's a daily practice. I think it comes up with the little things and the big things. So it's not just being grateful for these, like the big things that have the highlights that happen in life, right? So if we look at our, our highlight reel usually is a lot smaller than all the little day-to-day things that happen, right? And I think when you start to focus on those things and the gratitude for those things, that's what, that's how we start to develop it. But I think it has to be, it has to be like authentic, inherently, like part of our everyday life, the way we think, the way we respond to situations, process information, how we regulate our emotions. Like there's so much to it where when you're able to like kind of navigate your life personally and professionally through that perspective, like, you know, it's always there. And when you're experiencing hardship or difficulties or disappointing news, or you didn't get something you wanted, you're able to kind of look through this lens of gratitude and try to see an alternative perspective, the silver lining, the bigger picture and all that stuff.

Susan
My brain is going in a couple of different directions, but I want to start with what, what was, what was something that you were, have been grateful for one of those small things, like either this morning or sometime this week, like give us an example of one of your noticings of gratitude.

Ahmed
Um, I think, I think one is like health. Right. So like something recent, like, you know, we've seen, we've seen, there's weirdly been a lot of plane crashes this week in our country. Right. And, and, and I fly all the time and it's like, so when those things happen, like you never realize like these things could happen to you or, and until they usually hit close to home. But I think like, just like being healthy when, you know, when it's cold outside or when we have to commute to work or, you know, having a job and all those things too. So there's this little trick I, I tell people that it's really simple and it helps people kind of reframe things. It's like, oftentimes we, when we don't want to do something, we say, I have to do this. I have to do that. I have to go to work. I have to, but if you change, I have to, to, I get to all of a sudden, it seems like an opportunity rather than a burden or a task we have to do. So I get to go to work, right. I get to do this. I get to go here. I get to pick up my kids or I get to go grocery shopping because a lot of people don't get to do those things, you know, and often, and, and another thing is like where for a lot of people, like they're living the life that they once dreamed of. But then when you kind of accomplish your goals, you lose sight of that. And we kind of reset and people become unhappy again or, or they want more. Right. So it's like this constant, just pushing the needle of like more and more and more rather than slowing down and reflecting on like how far you've come or how hard you worked and how much you've accomplished. So I think that's also part of it too, is just kind of, and that's part of that mindset and just like having a perspective of the things that we have. Because, you know, for like, for a lot of people, like they would, they would die to be in our shoes. Right. And whatnot. And I think having kids also like really highlights that too, when you see all these things happening around the world, when, you know, the innocent children and stuff, and then you see your kids and, you know, they don't, they don't know that they're privileged and blessed in certain ways, but like we do. So it really helps kind of highlight that. And that sense of gratitude that the sense of safety at home and whatnot. So, yeah.

Susan
I'm glad, first of all, I, in a former life worked out and one of the people that I use was on like an online platform and she's from Puerto Rico. And she would always say like, you don't have to do this. You get to do this. And I was like, it does, it does like motivate you. Like, yes, I do get to do this. I'm so happy. So that just like gave me a little moment of joy. But I was thinking about what my moment of gratitude would be for today. And I'm curious if this resonates with you. So I'm trying to get ready. I'm like, you know, I don't usually dress like this. I'm usually in like jeans. And sometimes if I'm working from home, like not even that. And so I've got makeup on, I'm trying to get ready. And I run downstairs and my one son who's not quite three is obsessed with Bluey. And he is obsessed with the soundtrack, which actually is surprisingly good. Like it's like, it's very well composed and it's just beautiful. But anyway, so the one, this one song called, comes on called Dance Mode. And he just goes, mama, dance, mama, dance. And like, all of a sudden, he tells me to dance. I have to do it. So I'm like in my kitchen, just like dancing at the sink, you know, pretending like I'm, I guess, sort of in my twenties again. Right. And my older son is like, she's shaking her butt. What is she doing? And it's like, it's like it's leaning into those moments. Right. It's like thinking like, yeah, I was I was running late. I had a bunch of stuff I wanted to do before I got here this morning. And I could have just been like, no, mommy can't dance. I got to go. But it's like pausing. It's like I feel like gratitude is like next door to mindfulness of like knowing like what's in your body and like when it's important to slow down and be present and just like embrace what is there. Yeah. And I'm so happy that I did that because like it gave me joy. Clearly, I'm like still. And then my kids were giggling and like those are those small moments I feel like that we can lean on when we're going through hard times, where we can truly find joy and gratitude in in the small things when the big things feel like they're crashing down around us. Yeah.

Ahmed
Yeah. I think kids can give us cuddle therapy and make us feel better. Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, but you brought up something really important about mindfulness. Right. So like you can't practice gratitude without having this sense of mindfulness or practice of mindfulness as well. And kind of that cliche of stopping to smell the roses. But it's so true because there's so much around us in our everyday life that we have to be grateful for. But we just don't reflect on it because we're so focused on the thing that we want or that we don't have or that other people have. And that's where like the gratitude helps us because otherwise, like, you know, people experience like bitterness and enviousness and greed and all these negative feelings because they're focused on other people or other things or wanting something rather than all the things and the blessings that they have in life. Right. So that's really important. Yeah.

Susan
I'm curious, have you found that people who you would think have the most trouble finding gratitude, often the ones that have the most?

Ahmed
Yeah, I mean, I can see that, but I think there's a lot of pressure that people experience, too. And then and again, there's like a lot of research that shows like, you know, money doesn't make us happier. So there's research that shows that to an extent, money can make us happy because it can alleviate certain stressors. But beyond that, it doesn't actually like lead to increased happiness. So having more and more money doesn't necessarily lead to people being happier. But oftentimes, I think you see people who have more and could be less grateful for the things they have because maybe they continue to want more, you know, because they keep pushing the needle versus people. And that's why, like, you know, the happiest people in the world are actually the poorest people in the world because they don't have these pressures or they don't have these things. So they focus on what they have in those and different values to write a sense of community and family and all those things and spirituality and faith and all those things that are so important and make us happy. But we don't you know, we don't focus on those as much. And we have different things. Like I said, society makes us believe that we need all these other things to make us happy. And and they don't.

Susan
Yeah. I'm thinking that that social media is killing our ability to practice gratitude.

Ahmed
Yeah.

Susan
What are your thoughts on that? What are you seeing from me because you work with young people, right? Like. Help me, I feel like there's so much pressure, I mean, even I feel it as like an elder millennial, you know, to have this like the perfect playroom or like the picturesque garden or like this person's, you know, traveling somewhere very beautiful. And I'm like, you know, just knee deep in toys all over the floor. And like I'm putting chicken nuggets in the oven again for like the third time in a row, you know, so like, yeah, speak to that. Like, I feel like this is something that like what is getting in the way of our gratitude? And I feel like some of it is capitalism for sure. But I feel like it's been. It's been expanded so much by like seeing all the things that we don't have right in our hand every day, all day.

Ahmed
Yeah. I mean, social media is it's a highlight reel, right? Like people post the best moments of their life on social media. So for the most part. And that's what everybody sees. So they see everybody around them happy.

Susan
Right.

Ahmed
And then but the reality is, is there's toys on the floor. There's food everywhere. There's filth everywhere. Things are breaking. Yeah. Like that's that's reality with children. But that's not what we're that's not what we see and stuff like that, too. So it actually reminds me of so, you know, the Kelce brothers have their podcast and Jason Kelce. He had a like a reality TV show, but that went into his home and people were criticizing him and his family. They have the time. They had three small girls. I think they have four now, but they were criticizing them because their house was a mess. There was toys everywhere. And they basically were like, this is what real life is. This is what most of us live like. So the things you see on TV, that's not really true. Like this is this is the life of people with small kids.

Susan
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there is a breed of influencer, if you will, that is like getting traction for just showing the real. Yeah. And I really appreciate that. But it also feels like why do we need to justify those things? Like I remember it's been so long, but I remember listening to a podcast about bringing joy into the home. That was really powerful to me because at the time I'd had one small kid. Now I have two, so it's even worse. But I'm talking about how like we expect our homes based on society to just be like to not even have evidence that there are children there and that like the home is not really even meant to be designed for them. It's meant to just like hide them. But really, like they just they live there, too. They deserve to have spaces that are theirs. And oftentimes that mess may trigger me, but it certainly doesn't bother them. Um, and sometimes just stopping to find gratitude in their joy.

Ahmed
Yeah, exactly. And that's stopping to smell the roses of small moments and whatnot that you have with, you know, with kids and other family members and stuff. But then and then, you know, we bring work stress home with us and that can get in the way. So that's also really important. Like how do we separate the two or leave work at work as best as we can when we enter into this like other part of our life and whatnot and bring it home? So.

Susan
So I feel like you are a good person to ask this question because you deal with heavy stuff, I imagine all day, every day. How do you not bring work home or what's your process for disengaging and and being able to find gratitude and miss like all that heavy?

Ahmed
Yeah, I'm laughing because I'm like, I don't know if I can. So so I'm very good at leaving, like the stress at the door, like I not necessarily like the work at the door sometimes, too. But no, I think it's some one of the things I do is I just try to be present. So no matter how tired I am, my kids ask me to do something. I do my best to try to do it and just be around them and try to be available and accessible. But but it's again, I try to cherish those moments because you see how fast they grow and they go by and stuff like that. So I try not to take those moments for granted. And I think I did a better job with my second kid because the first one, when he turned five, I was like, oh, my God, he's already five. And then I was like, it went by so fast. So then for the second one, I actually like slow down a little bit more to be like, you know, this time is going to go by so fast and whatnot. So I tried to like do that. But but it can be hard. I think it's about just being present and mindful when you're at home or when you're with family or friends or whatever and and whatnot. So that really helps. But yeah, it can be hard at times, just given different things that come up at work.

Susan
So I think when you are in a caregiving role, as as you and I both are. When you when you use your heart at work, like your heart is still in your body when you go home. And so. I mean, the stress maybe gets left at home, but for me, the feelings that I'm carrying, the kind of emotional burden is hard to just like take away. But I do think that finding something that can kind of snap you out of it, like your kid asking you to dance in the kitchen at like 8 a.m. is it is a good one. And yeah, I think kids are really helpful in that because they just do it naturally. And somehow along the way, like we lose that ability or it's like squashed in us. I don't know. Yeah.

Ahmed
Well, what you're describing is compassion fatigue where you bring where when you're in a caregiving role, you work with your heart, you get tired, take care of people, you bring those feelings home. But, you know, kids, we do definitely lose it. But a lot of it is because how we perceive things. Right. So kids are very present in the moment. Right. So they can go from crying to not crying once they have the thing that they want. You know, if we don't, we analyze it. We start to wonder what it means. We start to make assumptions about it. Right. We make things up in our mind. So there's a book called Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers. And basically it's because so when zebras in danger in, you know, in the in their natural environment, you know, obviously they run. But as soon as like they're safe, they stop thinking about it. They don't perseverate on it. They don't continue to wonder if they're going to get to they know they're safe. So it's basically the idea of that is like we don't we continue to focus on it. We continue to perseverate over it. You know, we ruminate, we go down a rabbit hole. So we continue to make ourselves miserable because really when we experience the emotion, it actually only lasts 30 to 60 seconds. Actual emotion only lasts 60 seconds, but it's actually all the way we process it that continues to allow us to repeat feeling that emotion. So worrying about something fearful, getting anxious about it. So we keep feeling the emotion. But in reality, an emotion only lasts 30 to 60 seconds and then it goes away. But then our mind allows us to continue to experience it because of the way that we process what's happening.

Susan
That is fascinating. And it actually reminds me of a passage that I read in a book called Burnout. Who's the authors are escaping me, but it's two sisters who wrote it. And they do they talk about I think they use a lion in the example, but that the lion kind of, you know, the town's person like runs away from the lion and they know they're safe. But for us, we just like carry that lion with us. It's like we think we're safe, we're not really safe and what that does. And yeah, I think being able to process those things is is really critical for like navigating through life. And I almost wonder if therapy is that place where we can just like dump our lions like, all right, here I am. I've got 50 minutes. I'm going to give you this lion so I can hopefully walk away until it crawls its way back to finding me again.

Ahmed
But it's a similar metaphor because as we carry these fears and thoughts and sometimes they don't exist. Right. So I also try to tell students and stuff and people like, why worry twice? Right. So a lot of times we worry about things that might never happen.

Susan
That's right.

Ahmed
So when something happens, it's like, don't worry about it. And even now, with everything going on in our country and changes happening that are impacting our staff and our students, I try to tell people, like, you know, let's focus on where our feet are at the moment and not like try not to get too hysterical about things, especially as leaders, because our staff are looking at us, our students are looking at us. Right. So how do we show up and we have to be present and focus on what's happening now, not what could happen. Right. So like we and that comes from the fears that we have. So how do we stay present and mindful in the moment and try not to get too ahead of ourselves, too. And that also helps us as well.

Susan
So, yeah, I am. I have a son with with disability and this idea of like, you can't, what did you say? You don't you don't need to fear something twice. Why worry twice? Why worry twice? OK, yeah. So, you know, as somebody who got diagnosed kind of in utero, that something might be wrong, I had like months and months to worry. And and the only thing once once he was born and there were still lots of things to worry about, the only thing that would actually take me away from that worry was like looking at him. And it was that moment of gratitude, right, of like I could worry about all these things, but I can't be sad when I'm seeing this sweet baby in front of me. Yeah. And I think there's power in that, in just like grounding yourself in what is the now rather than what could be or what might have been. But it's hard. It's hard to do that. It's hard to, I think, get off of that kind of spiraling. And I really I'm glad you brought that up because I feel like gratitude is the way to get off of that spiral, to like step off of that path, is to reground. I was listening to something on social media, of course, that talked about kind of joy practice as a way of kind of pushing back on on things that were really hard and heavy. So this was a I don't know if you are familiar with Alok. They're I don't know precisely how they would identify, but I think they're they're a non-binary like trans person who they do. They're a comedian and a poet. They are amazing. I mean, but they were talking about, you know, the fact that when you're like a part of a minoritized group that's oppressed, it's really easy to just get depressed. But then like depression is a really big downer. And so instead, Alok has chosen to use comedy as a way of like being grateful for what they're able to to to bring and what they have. And also as a way to say, I will not let you, the system, like force me to be sad. You want me to be sad and I'm not going to let you help make me be sad. And I feel like that can be true of so many things. Like, you know, the system would have told me, for example, that, you know, my kiddo wasn't going to be successful. You know what I mean? Whatever that means. And it was a rethinking of like, I'm not going to let the system make me sad. I'm going to be grateful for what what I have, which is this beautiful child. And. And it really forced me to like redefine what my goals were for life, like like he completely changed my perspective on everything. And I think really what he taught me to do was to be to practice gratitude.

Susan
How do you differentiate or or kind of relate joy and gratitude?

Ahmed
I mean, it's correlated. It's hard to experience true joy when you're when you're ungrateful, right? There's a huge correlation for it. But I think, you know, in going back to social media, we're all we're also in a currently in a loneliness epidemic and in our in America and a big part of that social media, because people cultivate these relationships that are that aren't necessarily as meaningful and fulfilling. And our so our students are lonelier, you know, our younger generation, a lot of people don't have those relationships. And that's why I like relationships or something to be so grateful for and the people in your life. But what's so fascinating is what a lot of the research shows is you actually only need like one friend to not feel lonely. So you could go from feeling lonely to not even think about it by just having one healthy relationship or good relationship or someone you can rely on and have in your life. And that's what we try to teach our students as well, is that like you don't need this large social circle and friend group to be to be happy or not feel lonely. You just need one person. Right. And whatnot, too. But it's very correlated. And I think people who experience joy, it's because they have a sense of gratitude and they're grateful for the things they have. And they don't focus as much on the things that they don't have or the things that they want and and whatnot, too. So I think I think those are the people that are happier and stuff like that. And so when you look at happiness in general, there was this study that came out of Stanford University that looked at, like, what makes us happy? Because everybody was curious. And what they found is that like 50 percent of our happiness is a genetic set point. So we're just kind of born with a disposition towards being happy or not. And we can't really control it. So that means there's 50 percent that we actually have direct control over. And what the research found is that all the things that people spend their life trying to attain.

Susan
Right.

Ahmed
So how much money you have, the car you drive, the house you live in, the clothes you wear, all that stuff that actually contributes to 10 percent of our happiness. And people spend their entire life focusing on this portion that actually only contributes to a very small part of a happiness than the other 40 percent.

Susan
I'm dying to know.

Ahmed
That'll be in our next episode in six months. That is the intentional activities, the things that we do every day. So that's the practicing mindfulness, taking care of ourselves, practicing gratitude, spending time with people. So it's basically all the things we do for self-care. So 40 percent of our happiness is at our fingertips. And that's the stuff that makes us happier rather than the things that we spend our life working so hard for. But I think it's hard to get to really appreciate that 40 percent without a sense of gratitude, because without that, you're focused on the things that are going to get you the 10 percent of happiness and whatnot. So it's the little things that we do. And I think a big part of that is gratitude, especially during hardships and difficult times and those stressful moments or, you know, when you don't get something you wanted or you disappointing news and whatnot. Right. I think those are the moments where it's like, you know, reflect through a sense of gratitude about things and whatnot, too. So I think that can be very helpful. It's helpful for me. So when I you know, if there's something that I wanted or, you know, was like whatever it is, whether it was like applying for a promotion or something and it doesn't work out instead of thinking you're a failure or whatnot. Right. It's like, how do you kind of reevaluate the situation, the circumstance from a scope of gratitude? And it can be really helpful to help kind of move through those difficult times. Yeah. Yeah.

Susan
And what I'm thinking about as you're as you're talking is this idea of I'm picturing like a triangle with three, obviously with three points, that's what a triangle is with joy, grief and gratitude all at the points and that they're all interconnected. And we need the other two in order to appreciate the one that we're like focusing on. Yeah, I don't know, I Because I think it's hard to be grateful when you've not experienced grief.

Ahmed
Pain or hardship.

Susan
Yeah. Yeah. And then I think that joy. Joy rather than enjoyment, I feel like there's a there's like we need to make a difference between joy and enjoyment, because like many people can experience enjoyment. But to me, joy is about. I just heard somebody, Ross Gay, who I think has a book called The Book of Delights. And I was listening to him yesterday and he he just he defines joy as this like entanglement of two people in a moment that they're like sharing this thing. And they have become entangled in this moment. And but it doesn't even necessarily need to be two people. He talked about like seeing a beautiful sycamore tree and like feeling this deep joy and how he's connected in some way to this tree, which I think goes back to your definition of gratitude and this this sense of connectedness. And I think that. I think that it's hard to really experience that want and be open to that entanglement without being grateful for the opportunity, but also without feeling some sense of. This is important, I need I need to pay attention to this because I've been hurt, I've been hurting in the past.

Ahmed
Yeah. And that's resilience, right? So all those hardships and challenges, when we get to the other end of that, we're demonstrating or experiencing a sense of resiliency. And gratitude is a really big part of resiliency. Like it's hard to be resilient without a sense of gratitude. So that's kind of what I think you were describing there is that like, you know, you need to experience that pain, that hardship, that's at times suffering and whatnot. And then as we work through that and we get to the other end of that, usually it took a it took a good amount of gratitude of the situation of our life, of the things that we have to help us kind of persevere through that.

Susan
Yes. Now I'm picturing resilience in the middle of the triangle. Resiliency. Yeah.

Ahmed
And resiliency was something that historically I thought people couldn't actually develop. They thought you either had it or you didn't.

Susan
Grit, right? You were the cowboy or you weren't. Yeah.

Ahmed
So now what they found is that people can develop resilience by learning different ways to cope and learning these different skills and stuff like that.

Susan
So I think we could all use some resilience right now. For those of you listening, it is February 2025. How do we get started? Give us some quick tips on how to build resiliency. Go.

Ahmed
All right. I mean, resilient is resiliency. There's different like things that contributed to it. Right. So obviously we've we've covered gratitude. Right. Having a sense of optimism, perspective, taking. Taking care of yourself is important, too. Right. Because a lot of times when people are suffering or struggling, they stop taking care of themselves. Right. And you need to do that as well. Right. So doing that, having perspective taking is important, too. Right. When you're working through resilience and stuff like that, mindfulness is important when you're trying to build resilience. So all of that is really important, too. And just being aware of the thoughts we're having, the way that we're interpreting the situation we're going through and whatnot can be really helpful. And it's so easy to get caught up in. In things, right, where it's like, how do we step back? And that's where we need the mindfulness to kind of step back and, you know, see things more broadly and whatnot and then try to prioritize what's really, really important. But resilience is it's like a muscle that you have to practice and keep working on. And as you do, it gets, you develop the ability to be able to deal with hardships. And it's also not something that's reactive. It's proactive. Right. So we think of resiliency almost like a piggy bank. Right. So you keep so as we keep taking care of ourselves and taking care of our minds and our bodies, we put stuff into this piggy bank. So when that hardship comes, we're equipped to deal with it. And that's why when they say you can't pour from an empty cup or when you're like burnt out or you're exhausted or you're drained, when you experience that hardship, it's going to be really hard to deal with. It's going to kick your butt. So we have to continue to take care of ourselves. So resiliency isn't necessarily like this reactive process. When something difficult happens, it's taking care of ourselves every single day so we can manage those difficulties. And when those difficulties happen, they they impact us less, too, because we have that reservoir of support and skills and self-care that we've stored away that we can deal with a little bit more differently. Right. When we think about going into a crisis state on this emotional thermometer. Right. So people who take care of themselves and, you know, are in a better place, it's going to you know, the situation is going to take more to kind of put them into this state of panic and crisis and whatnot. Right. Versus like if someone who isn't taking care of themselves isn't feeling well, overwhelmed, stressed, burnt out, they're probably they're more vulnerable to go into this crisis state. So so that's why it's like kind of taking care of ourselves every single day doing the little things is really important. Yeah.

Susan
So I'm going to ask you one other really easy question. I have about negative 10 minutes in my day every day for myself. I'm imagining that sleep is probably the most important kind of wellness thing. We have to call it wellness because we don't have the space to actually just do what we need to do for our bodies. So I'm imagining sleep is really up there and like diet. But beyond that, if I had to choose between like meditating, exercising, going to see a therapist or like hanging out with a friend, can you put those in like a hierarchy or like are they different for everybody?

Ahmed
Well, the other funny thing about sleep, though, is like when you have kids, you have to choose between sleep and just time for yourself. So that's when you that's right. So people it's like you can't have both. So you put your kids to sleep and you're like you can have self time for yourself, but then you're going to suffer the next morning or you can go to sleep and then you'll suffer the next morning anyway. So it's like a double edged sword. I think it depends on what people need the most. Right. So everybody it's different for everybody. And we and time is hard. And one of the things that I try to encourage people to do is like all these things you describe, whether it's meditation, practice, you know, exercising, reading a book, taking care of yourself, whatever it is, you can do them in small bursts. So they don't have to because a lot of times people are like, I don't have time for it's like you might not have two hours to go to the gym. Right. And work out. But you have 15, 20 minutes in your day to do something active. Right. So you can build in these little moments of it. So it doesn't have to be this like really, you know, half day experience of going to the gym. Right. Is what we think of when we think about doing these things. So that overwhelms people, but they don't realize is you can do these. You can build in little blocks throughout the day to do these things. And you'll still notice the impact and the benefit of them. So it doesn't have to be that. And that can be really helpful. And then that helps you build momentum, too, because when you start doing it, then you're feeling better. You feel more motivated. And then you maybe you can prioritize some of that. But I would say it just takes time for what everybody needs. Everybody's different and whatnot. So there's not one thing that's more important than the other. It's just really what someone might find most helpful at the time.

Susan
Yeah, I think getting out of that, like I need at least 30 minutes to do an activity. 00:36:12,780 --> 00:36:22,500 I don't know what maybe it's Outlook has this like, like, yeah, my brain is like everything in 30 minute increments.

Ahmed
Yeah, that's so funny. Yeah, but that's true.

Susan
Like, you know, meditating for like two, three, five minutes is enough. But I never think to do it in the middle of my day ever. Yeah.

Ahmed
And sometimes when you're overwhelmed, and you're sitting at your desk, and you have so much to do, but you can't get yourself to do anything. Sometimes the best thing to do is to step away for five minutes. Yep. Just lay down, take a break, go for a walk. And then you come back a little bit more calibrated, and you can focus a little bit.

Susan
So yeah, I think you'd be proud of me. Everyone says my office looks like, looks like a therapist's office. It's like I took out all of the what I feel like is oppressive, like, gray, like, Soviet era furniture. And I brought in like a couch and like pillows and a blanket. And I'm just like, because I don't. So yes, yes to stepping away. And like, sort of getting yourself in a good mindset.

Ahmed
I mean, I'm a big believer and you should you should decorate your office. Yeah, because we spent half of our life at work. Yes. And, you know, it's funny, because some people don't do anything to their office. It's just like the standard furniture. And I have a ritual where every winter recess, I kind of refresh my office a little bit just going into the new year. But yeah, because we spend so much time there. And it's like, you know, so you create this environment for yourself. That's, that's nice. So I think people should always decorate their offices. And it builds gratitude.

Susan
Like every time I go into my office, I'm like, ah, just feels good. Yeah. Right. Like, yeah, I have this nice. All right. I have to know what did you do to refresh your office this time?

Ahmed
I got a bunch of new paintings. So, yeah, I got a bunch of new paintings. So every every year I kind of take a trip to home goods and see what see what I can do. But this year I got a bunch of new paintings and I and I and I put them up. So so and they're noticeable. People walk in. They're like, oh, that's on you. So but it just helps. Coming in makes you feel happy. And and that's funny. Speaking of gratitude, like not everybody has a window in their office. Right. Right. Yeah. And, you know, we know window offices are our premium. They're, you know, at Pitt.

Susan
May I ask, do you do you have a window?

Ahmed
I do. I have a panoramic window. That's that's two. That's two walls.

Susan
So not many, not many walls for paintings.

Ahmed
No. And that's a little bit more challenging. But but I found a way. So, yeah. But that's grateful. So every day I walk into my office, I feel so grateful that I get to work from this environment and when I take care of it and, you know, and whatnot. So, yeah.

Susan
Well, this has been such a pleasure. It's like what I needed on a cold, freezing February morning. I want to just ask you, like. Give us give us a challenge, give us something that we should kind of try to notice or be grateful for, like one thing that we can try to work towards every day. You have anything that you recommend to people?

Ahmed
Stop social comparison. So that is the biggest thing. So I forget who said it, but there's a famous quote about comparison is the thief of joy. Yep. Maybe one of our former presidents. But social comparison is the thing that makes people oftentimes feel the worst. And we have this tendency to engage in upward social comparison. So we're always looking at people that have more than us that we perceive to have. Right. Right. Or look happier than us or look better than us or have more money than us. And it just makes us feel like crap because we're focused, so focused on all the things that other people have that we don't. And that's why when you shift it and you engage, it's called downward social comparison. So it's not looking down on people. Right. But it's downward social comparison where then you start to see how much more you actually have than billions of people in the world. Right. You know, we we then so you engage in downward social comparison and you start to then feel grateful for everything you do have. And it's not meant to be like because it's very important not to be. There's this concept of toxic positivity. So it's very important not to get to a point where, you know, we're constantly going around just, you know, a walking, talking fortune cookie. Right. We're just saying things. But like it's like a healthy sense of gratitude and perspective taking and whatnot. And knowing that no matter who you are, you could always have it worse and you can always have it better. But where you are is usually you're fortunate to have what you have and it could always be worse. And and that's where downward social comparison really helps us with that, too. So whether it's for ourselves, our family members, our kids or whatnot, like that's just how this but people spend so much time focused on other people that it makes them miserable. So I would say one is that the other thing is there's a gratitude journal. So it's very simple. So basically, every night before bed, you write down three good things that happen in your day. And this is actually research was done on this. And they found that people who kept a gratitude journal for 21 days, it reduced their depression, their anxiety and help them sleep better. And the reason for that is, is no matter what kind of day you had, you could have had a really good day. But there was like one negative interaction, one bad thing that happened. And when you're going to bed, that's the thing you're thinking about. So you're taking these these negative events from your day into your night and it impacts our sleep. So when you start to practice gratitude, and that's usually the first thing I tell people to start is to keep a gratitude journal and just write down three good things that happen in your day. When you do that, it starts to, you know, improve our sleep, make us feel better and focus on the things that went well, not necessarily the things that went bad. So that's a really simple trick, trick, activity, game, whatever you want to call it to do it. Also daily gratitude reflection questions, there's card decks, you can just Google them. Yeah, but they're just different. They just a lot because we don't we don't really think about all the different things that we have to be grateful for. So just like simple daily practices of having like, they even make little calendars where you can peel off the calendar day and every day has a different reflection question just to make you think and reflect on and stuff like that. It's really important. So it keeps you in this space. Yeah, and it keeps you in this space of focusing that and it really helps with stress because I'm not a big complainer at work and stuff like that. So people always ask me like, or, you know, and I'm like, because it comes from a sense of gratitude and, and being like, you know, yes, I can complain about this thing. But there's also so much that's going well and to be grateful for, but people tend to just find the things to complain about no matter how well they might have it at work and whatnot. So so people would always be like, how come you don't complain or whatever? And I'm like, because I just I'm just grateful for the opportunity to be here or whatnot. And yeah, I doesn't mean I agree with what's happening, but then it helps me not complain, not stress, not get fixated on these things, especially when you have no control over it. So a lot of times people get so fixated on things that they have no control over. So I think practicing gratitude also helps us kind of regain some control of how we choose to manage a situation and deal with it rather than getting so caught up and angry about something that we literally can't do anything about. So.

Susan
Right, right. Yeah. Well, thank you. I am holding a journal in my hand and I am actually going to be going down to Dallas in a couple of days to with my son to help him get some some therapy. And so I will be taking my journal and doing this. And so it takes 21 days. Like I have to just do it for 20.

Ahmed
Trust the process. 21 days and see how you feel after 21 days.

Susan
All right.

Ahmed
And keep doing it and you'll start to notice that, like, I'm actually in a better place.

Susan
I'm going to try it. What is I this is it. I promise we're almost done. But like, what is the students reaction? Because I've tried to do like, you know, at the beginning of class, like, you know, let's take some time. Like, what are things we want to celebrate? What are things we need counsel on? We did a gratitude wall, actually, in November, where we just had like a big, like, you know, piece of cheap white paper up on the wall and, you know, ask students to write what they are grateful for. But I feel like so many students are just kind of like I just so many of them kind of roll their eyes. I'm like, I just I'm here to learn. Like, why are you bothering me with this? You know, how do you have you found a way to kind of break in or just by inviting by just providing those invitations eventually?

Ahmed
Yeah. And again, not everybody's receptive to it. A lot of people are cynical when it comes to the to the whole concept of practicing gratitude. And then it's also important to like not make sure we're not engaging in toxic positivity. But I think you said it right where it's like, how do we create a space where we can invite students to participate in it rather than making it like mandatory for everyone to do? Because a lot of students appreciate it. They enjoy it. They like doing it. And then others, there's always going to be people that are resistant to it. Right. But I think because we do it as a staff, we celebrate small wins. We start all of our staff meetings with a gratitude reflection.

Susan
Do tell me. Yeah.

Ahmed
So we start every meeting starts with a gratitude reflection where we create breakout rooms and there's a different gratitude question. And it gives staff an opportunity just to, like, one, connect with other people. And, you know, in this hybrid work environment as well and and just reflect on something positive that's going on and staff enjoy it. They get to do it and it just and it creates this different kinds of conversations that don't organically happen otherwise. So so we start all of our meetings with that and a lot of the work that we do. So, yeah.

Susan
Do you use a particular deck? Have you gone through a couple or where do you find it?

Ahmed
On Amazon. There's so many. So I found one on Amazon and just kind of go through them. And it is because you think about all these different things that you don't even think about that you can reflect on to be grateful for.

Susan
Yeah. All right. Awesome. Yeah. Thank you so, so much for taking the time.

Ahmed
And I'll end with Pittsburgh. I'll end with this. This is really this is also something I do traffic. Right. So we hate traffic. Yes. And and we're, you know, in Pittsburgh, there's lots of traffic. But another very practical example is when there's traffic because there's a car accident and people, what do they do? They complain. And I always tell myself, like, I could be that person who's in the car accident. Right. So I'd rather be stuck in traffic and just be late to work or whatever rather than that. And I just kind of shift that perspective of being like, you know, I could be the person in the accident. So and but people complain. So that's those are the little things that then you take that into your day where it's like, yeah. So it just helps us kind of slow down, accept reality for where the way it is sometimes and just kind of navigate it. And, you know, no things can will be better, can get better and just have to be patient sometimes. So gratitude also helps us with patience. Yeah.

Susan
Yes. And I think, too, with the traffic part, if you're a parent, you are always grateful for being stuck in your car for longer. You can listen to your music or your podcast or just hear your own thoughts. Yes.

Ahmed
It's that five minutes when you pull in the driveway before you go inside to the chaos. You just sit in the car.

Susan
Maybe have like a little kind of pump up like affirmation that you do

Ahmed
because you just know once that door opens. Yeah. Yeah.

Susan
So I appreciate you so much. Thank you for being here. And thanks for the time today.

Ahmed
Thank you so much.