Susan
Welcome to Who We Are Inside, a Cupid podcast. I am incredibly honored to introduce our guest, Dr. Mario Brown. I am like a closet fan, so I'm a little nervous. But Dr. Brown is the Associate Dean for Equity, Engagement, and Justice, and Associate Professor in the School of Pharmacy. Born and raised in the Hill District, Brown spent his first years at the university bringing Pitt programs and people closer to his old neighborhood and other city sites. At the Center for Health Equity, he helped to pioneer the idea of taking Pitt services to black barbershops and salons, teaching their personnel how to give customers preventative advice about illnesses common in the African American community, such as diabetes. The center also brought in Pitt personnel to offer in-store blood pressure and other testing, and eased the way for Pitt researchers to build trust and solicit community participation in current studies. Mario served as the Director of Diversity for the Schools of the Health Sciences for 10-ish years, prior to taking on his current role as Associate Dean for Equity, Engagement, and Justice in the School of Pharmacy in 2021. And there is a lot that I have left off of that bio, but Mario, thank you so much for being here today.

Mario
Thank you. It's great to be here.

Susan
So we ask that our guests share with us their kind of one thing. And I thought I'd start off just by reading what you wrote, because it was so candid and lovely, and I figured we could just start there. So you said, “I think my one heavy thing is my humanity itself. The expectation to be something other than human, to be and not do.” Can you say more about that?

Mario
Yeah. You know, we're called human beings and not human doings. But oftentimes, especially working in an academic setting, such as a tier one research institution like Pitt, a lot of competition, always doing, always doing. And I think one of my health equity tenets is that we have to be mindful that we are being and being human and taking care of ourselves as human beings and not thinking as though we're these robots that can just do and do and do. The bad part about that is that the systems that we work in do not recognize that. You know, we have an interesting culture in America where we think multitasking is the thing. We think the more that we do and the longer hours that we put in somehow is connected to our value and worth as human beings. And as a result, we're sick in so many ways. And so I think that's what I was getting at. And it's hard, even when you have some understanding, it's still very hard to implement because the system is much bigger than one individual, is much bigger than I am. And I have to function within it. If you don't believe I have to function within it, just ask my wife, who tells me, yes, you must go. You know, and so there's some very practical things there. But I think the trick to it all is like doing what you all are doing. And that is hosting platforms and opportunities for people to just show up in their most authentic selves and talk about these things. And then we begin to build our community where we can help one another to just be who we are. You know, yeah, I'll stop there.

Adriana
Mario, I love the way you put the being versus doing. Me, myself, sometimes I catch myself moving from one project to the other. And we don't have usually, as part of our human connection, we don't even celebrate when you something that could be small or big. So how do you navigate coming from one project to the other and giving yourself time to breathe, to acknowledge your being versus doing it? Because of all the reasons you mentioned before.

Mario
Wow, that's a heavy question. You know, but it's a legitimate question. How do we do that? And I think for me, sometimes it means that I just make a decision to escape. And what do I mean by that? I have to get up from my desk and go outside when I can. And that can even be hard. And I'm just thinking about the journey, all of the navigation it took for me just to get from the building that we work in down to this building. Because people were coming in my door wanting to talk, and important people, wanting to talk about people whose pay is higher than mine, wanting to talk about things that are going on in the world right now and how they're playing themselves out right in our building. And because of my position, people come to me. I like that they come to me for that. And then as I'm trying to get up from the desk to get out the door to get to the elevator so I can get down here, someone else comes and they hit me with something else. And it's something that's important that I don't want to just shrug off. I may not have an opportunity to have this conversation again. So I'm trying to navigate having the conversation, not losing what little momentum we are having on this. So it was a certain thing that I began three years ago, and now it's coming full circle, and I don't want to lose the momentum. But at the same time, I'm thinking I need to end this, get on this elevator, and get to where I need to be so I'm not all disheveled once I get here. And I think I'm still searching for how to actually do that. The one thing I will say, and I may have said this before, is that the older I get, it becomes a little easier to do. Because I think like my grandfather, I just remember him, he got to a place where he didn't care about what you thought. He would say what he wanted to say, do what he wanted to do, and if you had a problem with it, too bad. I'm not quite there yet, but I can feel myself getting to that place where it's like, you know, I have less years in front of than I have behind me, and this just isn't, you're draining my positive energy, or this is draining my positive energy. The stress is crazy. I need to protect myself. So one thing that I am learning how to do is something that I try to bring to my work, and that is a love ethic. And for me, I find that it's easier for me to love you than it is for me to love me sometimes. So how do I take care of me? How do I put me first? And I'm trying to practice that. So I don't have to get to a place where, okay, you're in my way. Let me get out of here. Oh, this is driving me crazy. Let me run for the hills. It can just be as gentle as, okay, you need some time to breathe. You need some space. You just need to step away from this. So I'm practicing. I don't have the answer.

Susan
Yeah. I like the way you put that as I'm practicing. I do think that it's a practice. I don't think that we'll ever get there. It's like all the work that we're doing, there's no end. It's just an ongoing practice. But I think we all just need those frequent reminders to do the practice. It's like the ding on... I used to have an Apple Watch way back when, and it would ding and be like, it's like 10 versions ago or something. It's still sitting there as if it could connect. It probably couldn't. But it would ding, and it'd be like, it's time to stand up, or it's time to breathe. And it's like we need those forced pauses. Yeah. How do you create that for yourself? What are some things you found to be helpful?

Mario
Yeah. I think I'm creating it right now in real time, because when you talk about things, you become accountable to them. And so we're on... This is being recorded. People can call me up and say, hey, what are you doing? Get up from your desk. Go take care of yourself. Accountability partners, I think. And I think that's the other benefit of when we try to be human. It gives everyone else permission to be human and to treat you as such. And so the hope is that when someone asks me, hey, how are you doing? They really mean, how are you doing? We've heard that one before. Yeah. And I have to practice the same thing. I can't say, how are you doing? And then you start telling me, and I run. I have to stand there and have a conversation, at least listen a little bit. And listening, I think, is real important as well. Here we are talking, but I'm learning that listening is much more important than talking.

John
So I noticed that sometimes I'll take care of me, which means watching TV, or going for a walk, or just sitting there and doing nothing. Sometimes I feel guilty. And I'm like, I got so much to do. I have to do this thing. Does that kind of play into it too? Is that what you're talking about?

Mario
Yeah, for sure. How do I turn my brain off? But my dean and I, we were just talking about TV. Right? And what do we like to watch to just veg out? And my thing is sports. And I'm a big Pittsburgh fan, so anything black and gold, blue and gold, I'm watching it. But lately, our teams have been making it past very far, past the regular seasons. But I'll sit there and I'll watch hockey. Right now it's hockey, it's basketball, it's baseball, whoever's playing. Because I can just sit there and sort of mindlessly take it all in. But yeah, I think shutting the brain down, and it's important for my rest and relaxation and sleep as well. So earlier today, I went past a school. They were having a science project. And so I went to be a judge for grades six through 12. And I met the instructor who bike rides, I mean, big bike ride like tours. And that's something I used to do. And I really like to get back into bike riding. And not just, but bike riding on the trails and whatnot. But doing like weekend long and week long bike trips, because there's something about just being out in nature, where everything after about the first day or two, you forget about everything. Nothing matters anymore, except the ride and the scenery. And I think that that's one way to remove myself from things that are important, but I don't think they're that important. And when I remove myself, I realized that, you know, it really isn't that important. And it'll be there when I get back. stacked up and waiting.

John
Yeah, I love Oh, man, this is just on my mind before my question. Sorry. Sorry, guys. I feel like I'm going for it.

Susan
John, you got it. No, it's good.

John
Yeah. I know. But is it strange? I feel like there are things and I take a look at them. And I'm like, Okay, I've been working on this for hours for weeks for months. And maybe it's a video that I made because you know, that's what I do. And no one watches it. You know what I mean? Or like, maybe a few people watch it or, you know, but it's really important to maybe three people. You know what I mean? And I'm spending hours and hours on it. You know what I'm talking about?

Mario
I do know.

John
So then how important you know what I mean? Maybe I'm even getting paid to do that. Yeah. What do you think about that?

Mario
I think that and Adriana, you can back me up on this, but sometimes so you're working in the diversity, equity and inclusion space. There's a lot of things that I put a lot of time and effort into that it doesn't seem to matter to anyone, right? I talked about having a conversation with someone before I came down here, about something that I've started, actually did in 2021. And it is just now coming back. Because no one was paying attention to it when I was charged to do it, and I did it. And then it became this thing just sat somewhere. But eventually things do matter. I think they're in their right season, right? Like we put the labor in, and then the harvest comes in its right time, right? And sometimes I think that we pioneer things. And I think there's the saying that someone once told me that pioneers very rarely live to see the fruits of their labor. Right. So I think I do, and we do what we do because we believe in it at the time. But I don't even know if it's our business to what happens to it after we get done with it, right? But it will have a purpose, I believe, even if it was just my personal growth.

Adriana
Yeah, for sure.

Susan
Yeah. I appreciate that you added that because it made me think of two things. John, when you were talking about the video, so my husband's a professional musician, and when we met, he had a band and wrote original music. And after we had children, he sort of was like, what's the point? I put in all this time, I spend money on studio time, and nobody listens to it. Nobody cares. And I was like, I sing one of the songs that you wrote to our son every night before he goes to bed. Beautiful. And we care. And that has to be enough. And it's also your creative expression. What meaning do you make from what you are creating, beyond just who's watching it, who's experiencing it, who appreciates it, how many likes are you getting? I think it has to come from within, as you mentioned, the personal growth part of it. And recognizing that often, maybe after you're gone, that video will be hailed as genius, and you are completely misunderstood in your time or whatever. But you just don't know. So yeah, I would offer that. It's human expression. These are the things that I think can so easily be pushed aside and devalued in our commoditized, capitalistic, doing society. There has to be room for just beauty and creativity and things that we're passionate about.

Mario
That's beautiful.

Adriana
One thing that after Susan talked now, it reminded me about transactions, right? Some people, depending on your professional, everything is a transaction, right? And because as professionals, our bosses, our supervisors, they have expectations. It's on your job description what it should do. So how could we think about creating the balance between the transaction that you must do because of your job, even family responsibilities, responsibilities to your children or your parents? How do we put this all together and we can live in harmony?

Mario
Yeah, that's a great question. First, I want to say, you remember the, I don't know if it's a poem or what it was, a little saying, but a little boy walking on the ocean and picking up starfish, throwing them in. And somebody said, and here's a bunch of starfish. Somebody says, why are you doing that? Doesn't matter what you're doing. And he picks one of those and said, it mattered to that one. It's something you said, Susan, just reminded me of that. But I love that question. And I love it because I've been listening to a podcast. And it's talking about why we do the work, the diversity, equity, and inclusion work. And then here we are in a place where we teach people how to be healers. And for me, diversity, equity, and inclusion, the healing work is one in the same. And having access to healthcare and things of that nature. And I was thinking that, what are we really talking about? And what we're really talking about is that transaction half the time. Is I need to position myself in certain proximity to power so that I can have access to things, to power, and so on and so on. And it creates the competitiveness, the capitalistic, the things that I think do not speak to our health. As someone who does things to try to heal, such as having dialogues, doing this type of thing, I think that's where the transformation happens. So how do I bring that into the culture of my workplace? And it takes some courage, I think. Because if I'm in my leadership team meeting, I am probably the only one who is trying to talk about transformation and healing when we're talking about, well, we need to get our numbers up. What is that curriculum looking like? We have self-study for reaccreditation, all these things. And here, this nut is sitting here talking about, we need to heal. And it even sounds crazy to me as I say it, but I know that there's a place for that. Again, I'm going to revisit the conversation I was just having where a colleague was saying, well, I don't want to step on anyone's toes. And I said, well, it's not really about stepping on anyone's toes. It's about aligning and partnering and becoming champions for one another. And I think part of what we have to do is change narratives. We have to use language that may seem strange, but over time, people will begin to adopt it and it will become part of the mores and the way that we do things. Yeah. And so that's also part of my mission. I think that the way that I can get to my being and not doing so much is to just make myself have enough courage to bring the language into the spaces where we're not talking about transformation. Working in the School of Pharmacy, I realized that this is pharmacy. We're talking about drugs. I can't watch my sports programs without every five minutes, I have to hear about the new drug and them telling me to go talk to my physician about this drug and see if it's right for you. I'm like, no, it's not right for me. Let's put my program back on. But that's what's driving the culture. And I think we need to have a both and, not a either or. So I think Adriana, what we can do together, and we talk about this because we have similar roles. You’re much smarter than I am. Doctor doctor doctor. But the point is, is that we are in the same building. Our students are sharing space, our faculty and our staff are sharing space. So together we can do things like hook our students up to celebrate a high holiday that some of our students were having. And to see that, to me, that's transformational. And that's the power that we have. So I think it's about how do we use our power? Even though sometimes we feel powerless, but we do have, we are proximate to power, we do have power. And do we use our power as a mechanism to transform environments and create healthy places, which as health professionals, that's what we should be doing.

Susan
Yeah. What you said reminded me of, this is just going to show how much of a stalker I am. The recent article that came out about the mentorship program with pharmacy students, and is it grade six through 12 students?

Mario
Yes. There's a summer program. There's a undergraduate component as well with the peer program.

Susan
Yeah. Yeah. Yes. P-E-I-R? Yes. Okay.

Mario
Don't ask me what that means.

Susan
Yeah. And really using your value of being to create a doing that furthers that value, I think is really cool. And it's addressing some of those concerns you were talking about in your leadership meetings about numbers, and also, kind of incorporating into the curriculum. I think there's these really elegant solutions that rather than exclude humanity, actually intentionally incorporate it. Yeah. And I just wanted to call that out, because I just thought that was so cool.

Mario
Excellent. And shout out to Dr. Christian Fernandez and Dr. Ravi Patel, who have been leading that effort. And yeah, and I just want to help them expand that, because I think it's great. Again, going back to even the access thing, they're intentionally trying to reach populations of young people who typically may not have access or exposure, I should say, to professions and careers. And we need them. We need them. So thank you for reading that. Yeah. I will tell Ravi and Christian, I know at least one person that read that one. There you go. There you go. Good work.

Susan
I wanted to ask kind of a follow-up question, unless either of you have anything. Okay. So I was listening to your Cupid interview, because definitely in stalker level now, as preparation. And one part that really stuck out to me was when you talked about the fear that people, mostly people of dominant social identities, but not necessarily just folks of dominant social identities, feel in sharing their story and their perspective. And I'm paraphrasing, so please correct me if I'm not getting this right. But I heard this sort of like fear of rejection, fear of dismissal. fear of being ostracized. And so I'm wondering, as we're thinking about kind of being rather than doing, does the doing kind of protect us from that fear?

Mario
The doing?

HOST
Yeah.

Mario
Wow, that's a complex question. I mean, short answer is yes, you know. Because we take off who we really are and put on our representative, right? And the representative shows up in the boardroom and the classroom or wherever the rooms are, right? Yeah, you know, and it is a protective factor. You know, you brought in identities. And so, you know, I'm very mindful now of my power and privilege unearned as a man, right? As someone who identifies as cisgender, heterosexual, and that I can go on and on and on about those parts of my identities that in this, in our culture, give me power, at least, you know, proximate to power. And I'm also very attuned to my colleagues and my friends and family members who don't have that, who have to fend for themselves in these spaces. And so I have to be mindful that I don't know if they are doing something to be injurious or if they're doing it because if I don't show up like this in this space, I will get swallowed up. I will get ate up. No one will respect me. And how do I know that? Because they have disrespected me before just because of who I am, right? And so I think that part of the being piece is allowing people to be wherever they are on the continuum, right? And recognizing the context and place matter. The meeting that you weren't able to attend yesterday, right? I came in a little late, so I'm sitting back and I like to observe, right? And I'm observing the dynamics. And there is definitely, you know, I was observing one based on racial lines, perceived racial lines, I will say. And people with darker skin definitely were more boisterous in making their points. And those darker skin people also identify or female identify. And that didn't escape me, right? So there is, I think, you know, some risk in just showing up in certain spaces and just trying to be without being performative because the power structures that be in ultimately white patriarchal society demands certain things. So I don't even know what your question was anymore. I kind of went down a rabbit hole there, but yeah, there's definitely some protection in it. And again, I'm gonna go back to the age. You're gonna think age is something that we don't talk a lot about in terms of identity, right? It gets ignored, but it's so salient to who we are because I remember coming to the University of Pittsburgh in 2002 and I was, well, not real young, but young enough to be naive and to be, you know, like a bull in a china closet. We're gonna make stuff and we're gonna dismantle all this, tear it down, build a new one, whatever we're gonna do. And I had to learn the hard way that, no, that's not how you do things. Now I'm at the place where, yeah, well, that's what we're gonna do. But in the middle, I had to learn how to navigate the waters. I had to learn how to be in those spaces in order to do what it was I wanted to do. And so I don't think it's a either or thing. I think it's a both and, but I do think that we can do better by being our authentic selves and by bringing our authentic selves. Most people that I, as a matter of fact, I think at the University of Pittsburgh, quite frankly, I'm gonna give Pitt a plug. I think for the most part, we do a pretty good job of allowing people to be who they are, right? I really do. I think that we're doing a pretty good job. We haven't arrived by any means. But when I think about the people that I work with and that I come in contact with, I feel as though there are parts of them that I do know that have nothing to do with the work that we do. I've seen professionals, you know, emote. I've seen people be passionate about things. I've seen people support students in ways that are above and beyond their job description. And I think that one of the things that makes us special at the university, I'm gonna keep bragging on Pitt for just a second, because what I found out this year, we've had a really good year in terms of rankings in various programs and in various schools. And I don't think you do that just by doing. I think you do that by being fully human and being part of a community. So yeah, I don't know. I feel like I'm on some soapbox right now. So somebody ask me a question.

Susan
I'm just sitting here listening, like, yes.

John
I think all that is, I mean, it's interesting because we talked about a whole bunch of different things, but like, how do we be human when we have all these expectations?

Mario
What would it look like if I showed up to work? And this is the exercise that I try to do with myself, where I try not to be what people expect me to be. So if I'm not having a good day, I didn't sleep well last night or whatever the case may be, do I come in and I try to pretend and act like I'm well-rested and I'm sharp and I'm on point? Or do I just kind of allow myself to be, you know what, today I'm here. And this is about the best you're gonna get. You know, I'll try to respond to a couple of emails, but this may just be a day where I'm having a day. I had a supervisor once. She's actually a mentor of mine. I'll invoke her name, Angela Ford. When I worked at the Center for Minority Health, she was the associate director there. And she would encourage us. She said, you all have sick days. Sometimes you need to use those for mental health and you need to be able to take care of yourself. And she really encouraged and promoted us to do that. But the other thing I learned from her is that it's really okay not to be on point all the time. You don't have to know everything. You don't have to do it all. You're enough just as you are. And I try to really practice that because sometimes I'm not on point. I don't have the answers. I'm just as confused as anybody. But I do believe that if I just show up, that I can contribute something. Yeah, I just think that authenticity is what we need to do. So sometimes I really have to sit in my truck sometimes for a minute before I go into the building and just do a temperature check on myself. How am I today? How am I doing? When I walked into the meeting yesterday, Provost Wallace, you know how he is. He's a straightforward guy. He's always, I think he is a model of just be yourself. He really is. And he wears a lot of different hats, right? But I admire him for it because he's always himself. So I'm coming down a little late, but I've been out on medical leave. I've been back a few weeks. So this is the first time I'm coming to this meeting in a while. And so he shouts me out as I come in the door. And I love it. And I go, hey, what's up, everybody? So totally inappropriate for this type of meeting. I mean, provosts are sitting there and other associate deans. You know, everybody was supposed to be, you know. And everyone laughed and it was, I don't think I made a relaxed meeting. I think John makes it a relaxed meeting, but it was a very relaxed meeting. And I think that's it, you know, just let's just be ourselves, you know. I don't, we shouldn't have to put on masks.

John
Does that also mean creating spaces for people to be themselves?

Mario
I think so. I think what you are, again, this right here, this is relaxing. This is fun now, you know. It's a little nerve wracking at first, you know. But then once you settle into it, it's like, wow, how often do I intentionally take time and make space to just sit down and talk, you know. Or I'm old school to rap, you know. And not hip hop, we do the hippie hop, but just have rap sessions, right. And I think it's healthy, I think it's healthy.

Adriana
And one thing that we all feel how rich and how much we learn from each and everyone who would come here and share their story. Thank you for sharing with us.

Mario
Oh, it's a pleasure. Thanks for asking me.

Music
♪ I still have stories to tell ♪ ♪ I feel ♪ ♪ I still have stories to tell ♪