Susan
Welcome to Who We Are Inside, a Cupid podcast. Today, we have an incredible guest, Carrie Benson. She is the Director of Sexual Violence Prevention and Education in the Office of Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion here at the University of Pittsburgh. She's responsible for ensuring that faculty, staff, and students are engaged in conversations around identifying, preventing, and responding to sexual misconduct. Carrie joined Pitt as the Title IX Specialist in May of 2015. Previously, she was the Assistant Director of Campus Life at Carlow. Carrie has worked in higher education for the last 12 years. She has experience working in diversity and inclusion, student affairs, and service learning. She earned her Master's Degree in Education from Pitt in 2012. She was also recently honored, kind of like early honored, she will be honored on Saturday, with the Pittsburgh Action Against Rape PAR Community Champion Award for her work on the PittSEED-funded project Circle Up, which focuses on sexual misconduct prevention and survivor support, and is one of the co-organizers of the Pittsburgh University's Believe Survivors, or PUBS, march. Carrie, it is such an honor to have you here today.

Carrie
Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to talk with you.

Susan
So, you focus a lot in your work on sexual misconduct and sexual violence prevention education, but today we're going to be talking about something a little bit different, which is parenting while working.

Carrie
Yes, I'm very excited to have this conversation.

Adriana
So, why is this topic so important to you, Carrie?

Carrie
Yeah, so when I first got invited to come to the podcast and thinking about, you know, what are some of the things that people may not know about us? us when they see us, that really impact us, you know, the very first thing that came to my mind was my two young children, who, you know, dominate my, you know, my mind and constantly thinking about them that may not show up in my work, or when people see me on campus, but they're always right there always thinking about the next grocery order, who's doing preschool pickup, you know, who's taking care of the sick baby. So, I was really excited to have this conversation, because it is a part of myself. I think for a lot of us on campus, we don't always see that that other part of of our work that's being done. So I was excited to talk about parenting.

John
I love this just because I have, like, I am so far removed from it. But I think it's a good thing, because for me, I can learn about it a little bit more and try to empathize, I would, I would guess, I would hope.

HOST
Yeah, awesome. I'm excited.

Adriana
So, Carrie, I was reading a little bit and from my own experience, workplaces have been designed with men in mind, right? With a loving wife supporting them from the background. But now women sit in those chairs, but expectations remain the same. Spending nine hours at work occasionally be available outside of working hours and prioritize work. Some folks may say that the biggest problem behind the frustration of working mothers is something deeply ingrained in society, organizational culture and parenting, the unrealistic expectations placed on working mothers. So my question is, what has your lived experience been as a working mother?

Carrie
Yeah, so I'm very lucky. I work for the Office for Equity, Diversity, Inclusion. And our administration really kind of when we think about the needs of individuals really kind of walks the walk in this area. And so I'm given a lot of leeway to make sure that I'm able to be at the important things for my kids that I'm not missing, you know, I was at my daughter's school yesterday reading a book and doing birthday cupcakes. And so it's been really great from the perspective of the people that I work for that my kids are really important and they recognize that and that they give me that space. I think the harder part can be sometimes the expectations that I put on myself here and that, you know, in our work in sexual violence prevention work, it doesn't happen Monday through Friday, you know, eight to nine o'clock. We are really tasked with meeting students where they are, which frequently is at night and on the weekends. And so I think it's a constant balance of trying to figure out how do I be home with my kids while also recognizing that part of the work that I signed up to do is also like meeting students where they're at and finding ways to also be on campus at night and on the weekends so that we can have these really great conversations and programs with them. And I think it's, you know, it's a challenging thing to navigate that I'm still trying to navigate.

Susan
I think one thing that I'm kind of curious about is I think it was Anna Martha who talked about it first. She talked about how we only have so many cups and we have one pitcher of water and that is like all of our energy and time. And we might have a work cup and a mom cup and a, you know, social life cup and, you know, a wellness cup and all these different cups and we only have the one amount of water. And I like that metaphor because it reminds me that my resources are not endless, that I can't just do all of the things without kind of burning myself out. How do you navigate kind of day to day or week to week deciding where to pour your water and your energy?

Carrie
Oh, that's a hard one. I think I'm doing it on a day to day basis. So I always reflect, you know, before I had kids, I came from this, you know, mentality of you work until the work is done, which as we all know, the work is never done. So I would come home from work and maybe sit down to dinner with my partner and then I'd immediately like get my computer back out and start doing emails. I wouldn't sleep because I was thinking about work. It kind of consumed my life. And when I had my first child, it was actually interesting about some of the space that having that child kind of provided me where all of a sudden like that wasn't possible. When I finished work, like I had to put my computer down and go, you know, do tummy time on the floor. And that was something that was obviously really, really important to me. And I quickly learned from having that space of when work was not consuming me at all times that it allowed me to be a little bit more creative. I think with my job, it gave me a time to like turn that part of my brain off. And when I when I came back to it, I was like, oh, I think I have a solution to this problem. And so I always kind of share that example with some of my students and people I work with that taking breaks and having things outside of your life from work are really important because I really do believe it makes us, you know, better at what we do. We have things that we're passionate about that we're spending time with. So I really like that's a part of the parenting journey that was really unexpected. But I think in terms of like navigating that, that day to day is is tricky. And sometimes it's about thinking about like what's going on in the month, you know, what are the needs in this particular day or month? If it's sexual assault awareness month, you know, I'm prepared to work more. But I also think it's it's it's a challenge. My youngest is about 18 months. Like he just doesn't sleep. He's getting better. But it's just this ongoing joke that he is just a horrible sleeper. From when he was little, he would wake up, you know, five, six times a night. Now we're we're doing better. We had two good nights in a row where I slept eight hours, I think, for the first time in months, the last two nights. But so it's like it's navigating the time and also just like the exhaustion of trying to like hold it all together when when you're just exhausted all the time, like chronically exhausted. And so, you know, I think it's being really strategic for me of trying to think about like, what does the day look like? Where you know, where do I need to be? What do I really want to so it's it's thinking about goal setting, it's thinking about what are the needs of my team, and then also doing kind of an inventory of what's going on with our kids and trying to figure out what their needs are, you know, there are some weeks where I'm not there as much. And it's putting, you know, in place having some extra support or really talking to my partner, that's a huge piece of making sure that he's picking up, you know, kind of that excess that I may not be able to in the week. And so it's it's day to day, and some days go really well. And some days I end up crying at nine o'clock, because I feel like every, like, I feel like I was bad at my job. And I feel like I was bad at momming. And, and so it's, it's like, it's not easy. And it's not perfect. And I feel like it's just one day at a time, but trying to be really strategic.

Adriana
I have a comment and I love that you said sometimes it goes well, sometimes I cry at night. This is what I want to share with our audience is also like, the figure of the mother, we expect so much from ourselves. And sometimes we feel so guilty, because we are divided between being good at our job and being good at being a mother and doing our jobs very well. So how do you feel when you are in this, you know, situation where you're like, Oh, I suck at my work, I suck at being a mother? How do you try to overcome this? Like, how do you have mental toughness for that?

Carrie
Oh, that's a good question. And I, you know, I'm, I'm here being like, I don't have answers to a lot of these really questions. I'm figuring them out. You know, I'm not gonna lie, like on those moments where you just feel like really hard things came up at work, and you didn't navigate it all that well. And then you got home and you were in your head thinking about, you know, that obstacle. And all of a sudden, you're like, Oh, gosh, I was like, not present with my kids. And those moments, like sometimes, honestly, you just want to give up. And like, there are days where I come home, and I'm just like, I can't do this. I can't do this. Well, like, I just want to kind of throw in the towel here. And I think for me, you know, at this point in my career, I've been working for a while. What helps me overcome those moments is being able to reflect and knowing that this is a natural part of my experience in the workplace is that I'm going to have days where I feel like I just really did, I didn't do well in anything that I did, and that I'm going to want to throw in the towel. But I know now that that is a fleeting feeling and that, you know, the next day, it's really possible that I'm going to wake up and I'm going to be really, really excited about something or I'm going to have a solution to something that felt impossible the day before. And so I think the biggest thing that I have learned is I just have to, like, breathe through that uncomfortable feeling and recognize that it's going to get better. And so I think that's the biggest thing that I have with like that mental toughness is just, you know, being able to reflect on the past and being like, it's going to be okay. And like, you're going to find a lot of joy in your work in a couple days or in a couple weeks, but you just got to get through this really hard time.

John
What can people like me do? People who are not parents, people who, you know, a guy who, you know, has never really experienced what you experienced. I mean, I do have friends, you know, girl friends who have the same struggles or who did struggle in the past.

Carrie
Yeah. You know, I think for me, I think it's just, it's about parenting, but it's about everything else. Like, it's about what this entire podcast is about, is that we all have things that we're carrying. For me right now, like the outside of work, you know, even actually before work, the biggest thing that I carry is, you know, being a mom to two young children. But we all have the stuff that we're working through or the things that are occupying our life. And so I think the biggest thing that we can all do for each other, including for working parents, is just giving some grace of recognizing that, like, we just need to trust each other to, like, take care of our jobs, but also even more importantly, to take care of ourselves. I know that for myself, I do my job better when I feel like I have a little bit of flexibility and that I am able to, you know, engage in the things that I need to in my life. When my life feels more fulfilling, I'm able to do my job a little bit better. And I think that's true for a lot of people, no matter what that it is that they're carrying that we may not be able to see. And so I think, you know, you know, one thing that we can all do, myself included, is just really trying to provide some grace when people have needs outside of the workplace and letting them figure out what those are and really attend to them.

John
Is there something that is happening that's causing mothers or just people in general to just, like, I don't know, really, like, prioritize work so much that it impedes on everything else in their life and causes so much stress?

Carrie
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of societal reasons for that. You know, I always kind of reflect, at the end of the day, anything that's really hard, my partner and I will talk about and we'll discuss. And some of the solutions that he comes up with, I will laugh at and be like, I can't do that. I can't be that straightforward. I can't just say that in that, like, direct way. And he'll be like, why not? And I'm like, because I'm a woman and in that, you know, I don't know how this is gonna come across if I do that. And it's really interesting just to feel that dynamic because it comes up quite a bit of just, I think the way that we're socialized, the expectations of us in a workplace are different. And so we're constantly trying to navigate that as female-identifying people.

Susan
There is so much that you've said that, like, resonates with me and I'm having trouble deciding what to kind of tackle first. But there are three, I think, or I guess two kind of main themes that I'm hearing that I don't wanna lose sight of. And one is the exhaustion. I think particularly of being a primary caregiver of young children, but also as children get older, there might not be as much physical exhaustion, but there's the mental exhaustion of the mental load and all the schedules and everything. And I see that with some of my colleagues with older kids. I describe it as, and this is gonna age me because I realize most cars now just have push buttons, but like back in the day when you actually had to insert the key, and you know, you'd have the car in the movie where you try to like turn the ignition on, it would just like click, it was like, but it would. It would never actually like vroom to life. I have so many days where I never vroom. I just keep clicking and I get through my whole day that way. It is just this like brain fog, you know, that we talk about in things like long COVID and in certain autoimmune diseases, but we don't talk about it as just a normal experience as a primary caregiver of young children. So I would say that, John, for folks who are not, who don't have kids or not going through that exhaustion, to be able to kind of see it, like if somebody's kind of off their A game, to not just like accept it in your mind, but to say, hey, like, it looks like you're, you know, you seem like you're maybe like pretty tired. Was last night a rough night? Was it like a five wake up kind of night? And I think just being seen, that I'm not experiencing it alone, that you can see, and by seeing it, you're telling me it is okay to just be clicking and not vrooming to life today.

Carrie
Yeah, I think that's a really important part of, yes. And it being okay. Yeah. It's like, it's okay that we are not always gonna bring our A game. Like that's just not possible for anyone. It's not possible to show up five days a week, every week, and just be like ready to go.

Susan
Not without drugs. Yes, yes, beyond caffeine. So the other thing I wanted to ask about, because I feel like this is something that is talked about, but often not, at least not that I've heard a kind of in our space here, is the idea of kind of gender norms when it comes to parenting and working. And so I was thinking about this because last night, I had my husband pick up our kids from daycare and take care of them, make them dinner, put them to bed, and I stayed at work late to get stuff done. I'm also working on my dissertation, so I just got a lot of stuff. And I felt so guilty about that. Yes. And then as I was walking out the door, I was like, but my husband works Monday and Tuesday nights every week.

Carrie
Yes.

Susan
And he used to work more nights. And weekends. And he never felt guilty. It was just, this is my job. Like, there was no guilt. And not that he's a bad dad. He's like an incredible father. He loves spending time with the kids, like, and he's a great partner. It just never occurred to him to feel guilty. And so I think for me, like, recognizing when I am putting those social pressures on myself unnecessarily and absolving myself of that guilt. Because what happened was I stayed up until, I don't know, I was here till like 10 last night. And then, but I was able to get up this morning and like truly just be present and enjoy my kids and help them get ready for school and not be like, I got to get up, I got to go, I got to get my stuff done. Because I had taken that space for myself the night before. So I think we need to like let go of the idea that we don't deserve the same boundaries that, that, you know, male identifying folks and parents have. And I also think that, that it's, it's okay to choose to not be your best self in one space so that you can show up in another or, or just choose not to be in the space. Like for me, I would rather stay up and work one night and then be able to be present with my kids than like try to go home and be worrying about it. And I have to give myself permission to take that time for myself. But that is so hard.

Carrie
It's so hard. I feel that way all the time. And similar that my partner is a psychologist, has a priority of a practice, has some nights in that work. And, you know, it's me and the kids and, and I love it. And it's the same thing when I have to work late, I feel so much guilt about it. Like sending text messages, thank you. And John is always like, you don't need to thank me. Like these are my kids.

John
And this is the other John.

Carrie
You can come put my kids to bed if you want to. They're kind of tough, but it might be weird too, but it'd be a little weird, but you know, it could be fun. But I also, you know, we have really in my house with my partner have really started to have some in-depth conversations about this because I think a lot of what you said is like this. I didn't even think to feel guilty. I didn't even think to put in the grocery order. I didn't even think about like who was picking up our daughter Annie from preschool because, you know, the expectation is that I'm just going to do it. And I think a lot of it is the way that we're socialized. And so one of the things that's been really helpful in my marriage as well as with our family is just having these conversations on a regular basis. And sometimes just exchanging like here are all the things that I'm doing. And like, I really need you to like, to kind of step in and do some of these things. And I don't want to have to always ask, like, I don't want to always be asking you to do those things. Like I don't want that to be part of my marriage all the time is like this constant asking to do things. It's just like, I just want you to go fold the laundry sometimes. And I think that, you know, I'm so grateful to have a partner who's really supportive and who really wants to share on the load because those conversations usually have become, you know, really fruitful. And it's a process and it's no one's, you know, it's society's fault, I guess. It's not, you know, we're just like working through the way that, you know, we have been taught to think about parenting and working and just managing a household. And it's a lot of undoing. And so it's a lot of just constant conversation that we're having about this. But it's also been a really like important part of our partnership.

Adriana
I have a question. We were talking about staying at work after hours while our partners are going to take care. What about when we have to travel? So sometimes your partner travels with you, but you cannot be fully present. Let's say you go to a meeting because you're worried that your baby will need you, will cry, will have a bad day. So have you been in a situation where you had to travel with your whole family? And how did you balance this? I have to work now, go to the hotel, and I'll meet you there. And how did it happen?

Carrie
Yeah, you know, I actually haven't traveled all that much while working. I think part of what I found works for me is that I divide a little bit. So if I'm going on vacation, I try really hard now to be on vacation and doing a little bit of emails, but for the most part, like being with my kids, and I've only had to travel for work a couple of times, and it's been really hard, and it's been like a lot of lists and going over things, but then I get home and everyone's fine, everyone's safe, everyone's smiling, and I'm like, why was I so worried? Like, you all had this. But I think that that's going to be a challenge that will definitely come up in the in the near future.

Susan
One thing that I was thinking about, you know, so far, we've been talking about, I think, the challenges of being a working, and we're using the word mother here, because the three of us identify as cis women, but we want to be very intentional that we're not just talking about, you know, cis women, we're talking about any primary caregiver who really is that person taking on the mental load and also trying to work. But I found in my journey as a mother, and a working person, that the skills that I have been building to be a better mom have helped me exponentially in my work. I'm curious if you've had a similar experience, or how has being a mother changed the way that you approach your work, and what are the strengths of motherhood or parenthood?

Carrie
Yeah, I think there's a couple things that I think about. You know, one is just this recognition that we're, you know, I think before I became a parent, I really, one of my primary identities was that of being someone in the workforce addressing sexual misconduct. And it still remains one of my primary identities, but being a parent just, like, it rocked, like it just turned my world upside down, and being that primary caregiver. And I think for me, it has allowed me to recognize just how much so many of the people that I was engaging with, my mentors, you know, were caring at any given time, you know, whether they were parents, single parents, there was something else in their life that was happening that was really challenging, whether they were caring for, you know, a parent or a niece or nephew, or maybe there were mental health struggles that were happening, just recognizing how we just have to be a lot more gentle with each other. And I think that that's been really, really helpful. I think, you know, I was really rigid and what I thought about, like, was meeting expectations for myself. But I think that also translated into what I expected from other people. Where if I had students who didn't show up for a meeting, I felt frustrated and angry. And now I'm just like, no, they either needed that time off or something else came up for them. Same with colleagues who maybe have to cancel a meeting or, or can't attend an event that they were planning on. It's just, it's like, yeah, that's because life came up and that's okay. And that life makes them like the cool person that I want to be with and have engaged in this work and their perspective. So, um, I think for me, a lot of it has been just like recognizing that, you know, we're really whole people and we just have to like approach things a little bit more kindness and empathy. Um, and then people want to show up in your spaces more too, you know, when they feel like I can show up as my authentic self, I can show up in this space, you know, if I'm having a hard day, I can show up the space if, you know, everything feels like it's falling apart and it's okay for me to bring myself here, like I'm going to be accepted in that space. I think parenting has really kind of helped me learn that. And I feel really grateful for that.

Susan
That's awesome. Thank you so much for sharing that. Um, Adriana, I'm curious, you know, you are, um, a mom who, whose children are older and you parented in a time when we weren't talking about lactation rooms or, um, you know, paid parental leave or anything. What has been your experience having gone through really having to raise children in like a man's world? Um, and then seeing the changes that have come up in, in the last five or so years.

Adriana
So it's hard. And I was very lucky when my kids were young that we could bring our parents, my mother and my mother-in-law to help us. Every six months we had a rotation because my older child didn't go to daycare until he was three and a half. So I was lucky to have the support. My second child went to daycare when he was six months old and I had to, I didn't have a lactation room. I had to do this in my office, freeze the milk and bring to the daycare. So I know every day we talk about the importance of supporting, but if you look on campus, this was a project we did a long time ago. We didn't have as many lactation rooms that we have now. So I think the most important thing is to accept the fact that it's going to be hard, but that it's possible with a support system. I couldn't do by myself. So I don't know the support systems out there other than your families, but you may have friends, your partner, your family, relatives, your neighbors, somebody that would be willing to help you. I don't think you should, nor you could, do everything by yourself. Even you and your partner, it's impossible because life happens.

John
How did we end up in a society where we're going to have to work, where there's no support system for some reason in our culture, and you're expected to have this maternal role also? It just seems like this is problem solving guy here. I want everyone to be able to say like, hey, I need space. I need my own time. I need the support system. You know what I mean? But it seems like that's, it's almost like I'm listening to everyone here say, I just have to be understood, and I have to continue doing this, and I have to continue being the person who I am. When it's like, why are we giving you all that? Yeah, why? Why? Why? Why can't we change it?

Susan
So I want to offer one thing that I noticed when you asked your question. I'm being very real, by the way. Yeah, no, it's good. I like it. So you said, and this was, I think this is unintentional, but I'm curious. You said, I don't understand why women have to work and have, I think, like have to mother or something like that. And I think the key is here. Now, I mean, I don't want to take away the fact that socioeconomically, most women do have to work. It is no longer a choice. But I think we also can't forget the historical context that women had to fight to get into the workplace in the first place. And that fight still isn't over in terms of gender inequality when it comes to compensation and things like that. And so I think we have to be really mindful when we're asking these questions that I do have to work. And if I didn't have to work, I would still want to work. And I am proud to say that I want to work, and I want to be a mom as opposed to having. And I know that you didn't intend to make that point, but I did want to kind of bring it to light because I think it's important.

John
No, that's good to hear. Because to me, my perception is that you feel like you have to. So it's good for me to know that you actually want to do it. Because I don't think I understand that from a male perspective. I think I'm hearing that I have to do this and I have to do that. And it's like, why do I have to do this? But if you want to do it, that's a different story.

Carrie
Yeah, I love to work. It's a huge part of who I am. I always feel like I get that question of like, if you won the lottery, what would you do? And I'm always like, I don't know, I'd probably keep my job and just do a little less of it. But like, I love my job. It brings me so much satisfaction. Sometimes I, you know, I'm not gonna lie, you know, on a tough morning, I love going into my office and just like, and being able to like, do something that I feel like I'm good at. Especially after like, everyone's like, you know, not eating breakfast and refusing to like, get dressed. It feels sometimes really good to like, go in and be like, I think I know what I'm doing in this space. But I love my job. Like, I can't imagine not working.

Susan
And I am so sorry, Adriana. I just wanted to add to that, like, sometimes, and I've gotten better about this, but I wanted to know if either of you have experienced this. I get like, resentful of my kids, if I like, I'm in the middle of something, and I'm really into it. And I have to like, stop to go get them from daycare. I have to like, stop to, you know, pick them up. It's like, not that I resent them. But I resent the fact that I have this obligation. Because I want to keep going with the work. I'm in that mindset in that space. And of course, there's other times where, you know, I'm with my family, and I'm like, I don't want to go back to work. But yeah, like, I think that's a really important point that maybe people don't get. It's like, I want this.

Adriana
Yeah. So, John, answering your question, Carrie just said, I love my work. Susan said the same. I feel the same way. But one thing that I have experienced that there is no best feeling that you can have is when your kids grow up, and they are proud of you. When they say, good job, mom. It's just like something that there's no price tag for that. So it's not just about me. It's about modeling for my kids. To be able to be proud of something that they saw their mother or their father they built together or separately.

John
You know what I am? A son. So I saw my mom, you know, when I was younger, work 10 hour days and come home with like 12, 13, 20 bags of groceries. Every couple days that me and my brother would just devour. And we'd be playing video games and she'd come home at like eight o'clock at night. And she'd be like, just stop and bring up the groceries for me, you know, she'd get so upset. And me and my brother were like, why is she working so hard? You know what I mean? Like, why can't she be here? You know what I mean? That's kind of the mentality that we had. We didn't understand. We had no idea. My mom's retired now. She hates it. She completely hates it. She would love to be working. And I think that's part of who she was and I just didn't get it. You know what I mean?

Carrie
My mom was, when I was in early elementary school, I think she graduated when I was in second grade with her PhD. And it's interesting, like that was actually a really formative thing in my life is that, you know, watching her write her dissertation, watching her, you know, she was getting it. We're from Erie. She was getting her degree in Akron. So she spent one summer living in Cleveland, living in Akron to like finish up her coursework. And I think, you know, it's interesting that you mentioned this because she still feels some guilt around these experiences of like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe I had to leave my kids for summer to get that done. And, you know, as a child, I'm like, gosh, I'm so proud of my mom for like going after something that she wanted so badly. And it's when I think about my own life, I think that it's, you know, she has been a really big kind of inspiration for how I want to balance and how I want my kids to think about me and hoping that they'll be proud of me, you know, when they're older.

Susan
Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that, Adriana, because I. I have a similar experience to John. Um, so my mom, uh, was an OB-GYN physician. She's now retired, but when she first, um, when I was little, she was in a private practice with one other doc and I distinctly remember always being the kid getting picked up from daycare last, my dad would pick me up and he always had an egg bagel and chocolate milk as a bribe. I guess it was so good to this day. I still love those two things. Um, but, uh, and then we would play the game of, is mommy's car going to be in the garage when we get home? And I still like, I don't want to call it a trauma, but like, I still carry that with me so that when I go to pick up my sons and they're the last ones there, it hurts not just like as a mom, but like as that little kid. Um, and I would see that, you know, she brought babies into the world. She delivered, um, babies that she delivered, you know, she would get flowers from patients every year on their kids' birthdays. And no matter where we went, we were literally in Sydney, Australia. She ran into one of her patients, Oh, Dr. Sober, you're the best. You know, I, and like, so I, I, I think that both things can be true at the same time. Um, and, uh, I think that it's, it's really, it's just really hard to hold those two truths simultaneously, but it makes me so happy to know that at some point my kids may decide to be proud of me as I am of my mom. Um, and I also try to validate for them, Hey, you know, you were the last kid today that really didn't feel good getting picked up last time. And I found that that's been helpful to just kind of own that, um, and let them say, yeah, that kind of sucked. And then, I mean, my five-year-old doesn't say it quite like that, but, um, I think that's been helpful to kind of, again, absolve me of some of that guilt, but man, it's, it's tough. And I don't know if your four-year-old is here yet, but like those, my five-year-old can like really just dig the knife right into the heart and twist it with some. Salt in there, like, you know, you weren't here, like last night I found out he was playing and ran into something and had like a horrible bloody nose. He had blood everywhere, all over his clothes. My husband was afraid he'd broken his nose and I had missed a call from them at about 4.30. And when I got home last night, I was like, oh, is everything okay? Like I saw I missed a call and he was like, oh yeah, James just, you know, had this horrible bloody nose and he just wanted to talk to you and tell you about it. I was like, oh, I'm sorry. I totally missed that. But, you know, again, he survived, he's fine and it's, it's all good.

Carrie
Yeah. My four-year-old likes to play this game where she takes a baby doll and she puts on my shoes that are by the door and she goes to her baby doll, I'm going to work. It's okay, honey. It's okay. I'm going to be home soon. I love you. I'm going to work. And I'm like, I don't know if this is a compliment or this is just like a knife into my heart, like somewhere in between.

John
I'll tell you what, I did want to spend more time with my mom when I was younger. Yeah.

Susan
Yeah. You know, it's one of those things. Yeah. I remember it. Yeah. And I think we're doing a better job now of recognizing the value of taking the time and going on the vacations where we're not, you know, doing a lot of work and really being kind of mindful of which events we're choosing to do and setting boundaries and saying no. And I think that that has come from the hard work of the mothers who've come before us to say, this doesn't work for me. If you want me to work here, this is how it's got to be. And I think about my mother-in-law who raised four children and was the breadwinner in her family. And she worked at U. S. Steel and she did a lot to really change the culture there of, you know, I can get my laptop out after my kids go to bed, but I'm leaving at five and I will not be available until eight, period. Like, so I want to kind of thank and honor the women that have come before us to give. Give us not just the permission, but the infrastructure to be able to balance those two things.

Carrie
Yeah, absolutely.

John
Is that, it might be a tough question, but is that kind of like saying that in a way there are privileged mothers who have that kind of, I don't know. Yeah, those kind of accommodations. But are there other mothers who can't relate, who are still really struggling, that don't have a job that allows for them to do that?

Carrie
Oh, 100%. Yeah, definitely. I feel lucky all the time. Working in our office, having Clyde Pickett as my boss, where, you know, that is okay, you know, and it's encouraged to set boundaries. But there are a lot of people in every sector who do not have that flexibility. Who maybe are doing shift work and like there is no leaving before your shift is over, being scheduled into work that like, maybe you don't even have childcare for, but you gotta show up if that's your job and if you wanna keep that job. I think it's, there's, it's still a huge struggle. I also think there's, you know, some inequity and, you know, just products and things that are available. One thing I think a lot about is that when my son was born, he wasn't able to latch. And so I pumped exclusively for him for, you know, about eight months. And one of the things that made it possible was having, you know, a wearable breast pump that I like, I pumped in meetings, on my way home to work, on my way to work. And like, those products are expensive, but they like make some balance okay. So there are so many different factors that like, come into.

John
Wasn't there a short of baby food for a little while?

Carrie
There was, yes, yes. Yeah, not long ago.

Susan
Yep, that was not stressful at all while my child was in the NICU. Oh. Yeah, yeah. Thanks for bringing that up, John. These are the stressors.

John
Yeah, you'd think I might be a parent or something.

Susan
Well, and just being aware, you know, that if you have somebody who has a baby and you don't know if they're on formula or they're, you know, being given breast milk, but just say, hey, I heard there was this shortage, like, how are you doing? Just seeing those things and recognizing that those are like really valid and important questions. But I think really the way to find this, you know, I think about my own kind of experience and I was having a really hard time at work a couple of weeks ago. And it was just like one of those times you're like crying and you're like, do I just throw it in the tank? Like, what am I doing here? And my dad, who is also a physician, retired physician, was, you know, expressing his concerns to me about, you know, you were such, you're such a good clinician, like you saved people’s lives. Like, you don't necessarily seem happy right now, like, why don't you just go back to clinical practice? And I'm like, first of all, I do believe that I'm helping more patients in my current role than I did, you know, in my previous roles, I said. But the other thing is that I can't because the flexibility that this job allows me does not happen when you're in the ICU. Those are 13 hour shifts. They are, you know, that's nights, that's weekends, that's holidays, like I won't do it. So I'll deal with some, you know, I guess more nuanced, challenging things that come up in this role in order to have the privilege of being able to be present for those important moments. On Friday, I'm taking my son tomorrow to some like pre-kindergarten event where we're going to ride the bus and we're going to meet his classroom. And it's like, I would not give that up for, you know, that and that's assuming the ICU is not stressful, which is not not accurate. I could certainly be crying about something that happened at that job, too. But I think I think that for those, you know, for those of us who are in these sorts of it's to really get the word out there so that we can make systemic change, that we can, you know, advocate for affordable or free child care for for young children, for everybody, and that we can advocate for, you know, paid maternal or parental leave for everybody. And not just in jobs that offer these types of benefits, but in, you know, those front line workers, those heroes that we like to celebrate are often the ones that are the most likely to not have. have those supports. And so I think it's important that we keep that in mind. And while, you know, Carrie and Adriana and I can talk about the struggles that we have, which are very real and valid. I am so often reminded of the privilege that we have too.

Carrie
Absolutely, yeah. I'm so glad you brought that up.

Susan
What is, I'm gonna just kind of shift a little bit. I don't know where this came from, but I'm curious for both of you, what is your kind of the simple thing about being a parent that brings you joy? Like something that is not remarkable, but just, I don't know, that's something that you can think about and just brings a smile to your face.

Carrie
I love cuddling both of my kids. So I mentioned my son is a horrible sleeper. So he frequently will, you know, be in bed with me sleeping and then my daughter will wake up and she'll just crawl in there too. And it's just, you know, having, you know, one on my right side, one on my left side, both just cuddled in, it's just like, it's heaven. It's so wonderful. Thank you.

Adriana
I agree. And I have another one to offer that is acceptance for who you are. With my kids, I feel like I can do anything. I can be myself. And no matter what, they will accept me because they came from me. So to me, it's just like, it matters so much that they look at me and they say, it's okay, mom. You know, you can dance, you can yell, you can scream. You're still their mom and they still love you. Unconditionally. Yeah, that's unconditional, yeah.

Carrie
Yes. I love that. Yes. You know, you asked earlier and I've been thinking a little bit about one of, you know, some of the joys of parenting and working. And, you know, one of the things that I think I have really gained from being a parent and a mom is this idea that like at home, especially, you know, with the little kids that I have, the things are always going. you know, somebody poops in the bath, somebody refuses to go to sleep, you know, milk is spilled all over the kitchen. It's just like a constant, like, you know, comedy of errors at my house. And-

John
Sounds like me taking care of myself.

Carrie
Chaos. Chaos all the time. But it really like, I think one of the things I really appreciate about it is it lets me laugh at things so much easier or like just take things in stride. Even in the workplace, like when something goes, you know, kind of horribly wrong, you know, with, I don't know, an event that you're planning or something that like, you can take this like deep breath in and be like, okay, like I can kind of laugh at like how all of these things possibly could have gone wrong to like let us here and then start to fix it. And I think that before I was a parent, that was just like frustrating. And now I'm like, yeah, you know, we can fix this. It's fine. Like we can fix anything.

Susan
Yeah. I'm hearing like some resilience. Like being a parent has given you some resilience in managing stress and chaos. I, that resonates with me because I am like a type A kind of control freak at my base. And my children have taught me flexibility and patience in a way that no course or therapist or anyone else has been able to teach me because they don't give you an option. You just have to learn it.

Carrie
Yes. I'll share just a quick story, I guess. When about a year ago, I was back in the work after my son was born and I was pumping exclusively and I realized I got to work and I missed like a vital pump part. And I had like all these really important meetings like stacked up all afternoon and I live like 20 minutes away. So I was like, oh my gosh, I can't get home to get this. Like, what do I do? I have to pump like, and I have to be at these meetings. So I like did some research and I found out that I could send an Uber to my house to like pick up this pump part. So I did. So I had, I like called my nanny. She like had to find all these obscure pump parts, put them in a bag and take them to an Uber driver who then like drove them to the Cathedral of Learning so that I could pump before my meetings. And, you know, I remember telling my boss about this at the time and- She was like, oh my, she was like horrified. She's like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. And I could just couldn't stop laughing. I was like, I just had to like Uber like a bunch of valves to my office. And I was like, it's so ridiculous and just like so funny. And I think that if something similar to that would have happened before I was a parent, obviously not that exact thing, it would have been just really stressful. But instead, like, I just like was able to like problem solve and like laugh through it. And I really attribute like my kids to that.

Susan
Yes. Yes, yes. One last thing I'm interested in asking. I found that my children have really let me be a child again and seeing the world through a child's eyes and seeing that, at least for me, I want to be treated like a child. The idea of like, oh, you're treating me like a child. Like that's a bad thing. I think it's an awesome thing. At least the way we're being taught to parent, which is like validating feelings and listening and empathizing and kind of meeting people where they are. I use so many of those skills that I've built as a parent in my work. But what they've also given me is this pause that has just enriched my life as opposed to the, you know, getting all of the things done in the checklist. It's the pause to recognize the beautiful sunrise or, you know, the bumblebees on the flowers or, you know, when the bubbles end up on like the ceiling of the bathroom and that is like hilarious to them. Have you noticed a shift in sort of your general perspective of what you are noticing, what you value in your day-to-day?

Carrie
Yeah, definitely. I think all of those things, you know, and I think good and bad. Not bad necessarily, but real. You know, there's the good things of like noticing all these incredibly beautiful things in our world that they are like fascinated by. My son loves squirrels right now. And every time we see a squirrel, he just like loses his mind. He's so excited. And that's just so. It's just so wonderful. And I also think like it can make other things really hard to navigate. Like, you know, when I'm watching the news and I'm seeing something that's happening in our world, that's just so concerning. That sometimes there's this feeling of like, oh, my kids are gonna have to navigate this or they're gonna have to navigate the repercussions of this. And that's really scary to me.

Susan
Yeah. Thanks for sharing that part. I really appreciate that. And as I mentioned, we are doing a kindergarten event on Friday because James is going to kindergarten in the fall and it's scary. You know, and I remember dropping him off to preschool for the first time and, you know, I had just sort of been going with the flow and I was excited for him. And we get back in the car and my husband was like really somber and I was like, what's going on? And he was like, you know, I never thought that I would have to really have in the forefront of my mind the fear of my son being killed when I was dropping him off for his first day of school. And I think to me, that's the one that is the most, kind of the closest to children. But I mean, I agree when you think about existential threats like, you know, climate change and all of this, you know, civil unrest and war and famine and everything that's going on. There's this other layer of guilt, at least that I feel, that is like, how could I have brought children into this world? Like, what did I do? Who was I to be so arrogant, to want these things without thinking about their wellbeing? So like real quick, how do you navigate that?

Carrie
You have an answer? Because I'm still thinking here. I don't know if I do.

Adriana
I think you have to let it go, because otherwise it's out of our control. We cannot do anything about it. But I also think we can prevent trauma by discussing, explaining. Exposing them to, not the bad part, but how to navigate if they really need to do that. Providing the tools, so showing them how to do it, because someday you can't do for them. They have to be independent, have their autonomy, and fight for what they believe, the values that you and your partner and your family will have with them. I think there's nothing we can do that is pre-made. We have to provide the tools, let it go, observe, help when they need help. And it's so hard to do that.

Susan
It's so hard. Yes, it is. I imagine the letting go is a practice, a daily practice and reminder, rather than something that happens once. I'll add that to my list of things to remind myself of.

John
How often do your kids smile and have fun?

Susan
Yeah, I mean constantly, constantly.

John
I guess you're doing a good job. I guess they're not seeing all the bad things in the world, right? If they're smiling and having fun, because you're creating an atmosphere for them. You're creating their world, that's how I see it. I'm not even a dad, I'm gonna keep saying stuff like that.

Susan
You know, I think my husband and I had a lot of conversations before we had children about what, if we should, morally and ethically. And I think what we ended up on was, children represent hope for humanity, for the world, and we didn't want to give up on hope.

Carrie
Yeah, that's a, I think it's really, it's very cool that you came to this. Like, you had these conversations and that you ended with like, you know, these kids could change something.

Susan
They better. They're white men. They, at least for now, they better change something.

John
I gotta go. I gotta go change the world. No, I'm just kidding.

Susan
Well, Carrie, thank you so, so much for being with us today and sharing your experiences as a mom, as an advocate and a proud worker, a proud working woman. We like to try to end with something that folks can do that, you know, that they could implement in their space to sort of help support the people who are carrying your one thing. So where you are currently kind of in your world of a four year old and an 18 month old, what is something that if I come to your office or, you know, we're exchanging emails, what's something I could do to help you feel seen and appreciated as a mother and a colleague?

Carrie
Yeah, I think a lot of it is something we've already talked about, and that's just providing space to be seen and to be heard when there are in our lives. I'll just tell a quick story if that's okay. So Susan, we both have these seed grants. And, you know, right before I applied for my seed grant, I had gone through, you know, I had lost a few pregnancies. And I think I really applied for the seed grant as almost kind of like something that I just needed some hope in. And I remember my supervisor at the time, Katie, right when I was about to submit that video pitch, she sent me this really incredible care gift that in the mail that said good grief. And it had all kinds of like really, you know, beautiful candles and things like that. And just a note of like, you know, these things shouldn't happen, but like, I'm thinking of you. And I think about that a lot as a parent now. Because just that checking in, you know, with me of like, even just acknowledging, like, I see you, I see, you know, the hardship, I see the challenge. I think, you know, all the time about how much that meant and how much that actually even like pushed. me to do something that I really wanted to do in that space. And so I try to think a lot, you know, in the spaces that I occupy, it just like the power of checking in. And, you know, when we know when something is going on, when we've seen like a behavioral shift in somebody checking in, and just, just generally making it something that we sincerely do with one another is just saying, like, how are you? What do you need? Like, you know, I know this may be going on, like, what can I do to support you? I think about, you know, all of the I've had a lot of really incredible female mentors in my life, and how incredible that just checking in with me has has made me feel. And so I think just checking in with each other, it's like this tiny thing, and it doesn't overcome needing some real change around parental leave and lactation spaces, and so many other things. But like one thing that each and every one of us can do right now is just do really authentic check ins with one another, whether you're a parent or not. But just like giving space to like be 100% who you are, I think will actually lead to much stronger workplaces.