Adriana
Welcome to our Cupid podcast, Who We Are Inside. Today, we have a pleasure to welcome Courtney Lucas. Courtney is a graduate student at the University of Pittsburgh School of Dental Medicine. After two bachelor's degrees, Courtney spent time as a middle school science teacher before going on to receive her MS at Thomas Jefferson University in Philadelphia. During her time in the Philadelphia area, Courtney continued to pursue her aptitude for education as an adjunct instructor of biology and leadership via the Leadership Life Program and Diversity and Inclusion Council at TJU. Wow. Courtney also worked as a scientist for several years and served as a MIT Office of Graduate Education, Admissions Council, MIT Summer Research Program committee member prior to continuing her education. And that's not it. Presently, Courtney is on her way to achieving her fourth and fifth degrees at the School of Dental Medicine. In fact, she defended her PhD dissertation this week on Monday. Welcome, Courtney. It's a pleasure to be with you today.

Courtney
Thank you for that warm welcome. It's a pleasure to be here.

Karthik
So great to see you, Courtney, here. I mean, TJU, MIT, teaching, doing research, getting into the field of dentistry as a researcher. You've had a multitude of diverse experiences. Can you talk to us a little bit about what it took on your part in making your mark in all of these different, yet very, very prominent areas?

Courtney
All right, no problem. So full transparency is a lot of blood, sweat, and tears, a lot of kind of pushing your nose to the pavement and kind of just pushing through. Just like any other field, any other career, you have setbacks, you have things that you aspire to or goals that you would like to accomplish in life. And sometimes those things don't pan out exactly how you would like for them to. And for some, the road's a little more difficult to get to where you would like to be and truly be doing and find something that you love and are passionate about. So I loved every single one of my experiences thus far. I think that it has helped me to kind of cultivate the person that I am today. And I'm very grateful for each and every experience. The good, also the bad. Because that has helped me in the long run. And yeah, kind of just keep pushing and forging ahead despite challenges along the way.

Karthik
I want to talk about the good a lot. But going back to a little bit of what you were saying, from your perspective, because you're going into these different arenas where there's a lot of prominence in terms of what they're doing. And what would you say were some challenges or barriers for yourself in terms of trying to balance what is the expectation versus how true to yourself you are? What was that like?

Courtney
Difficult. I'm still trying to figure out the best approach. Not an expert in that. I will say kind of finding your people within wherever you are is key. Also having a strong, supportive family. I feel like that has helped me the most in my journey. And kind of just reminding myself on a daily basis of this is what I'm doing. This is what I'm here for. Just disregard the background noise. Kind of like those mantras or affirmations that you set for yourself to make sure that you're in the right headspace. Because again, you know, you go through certain things and you may have a challenge one day, but it's important to keep in perspective that it doesn't have to be like that forever. And then that things will change at some point.

Adriana
Courtney, you shared with us in the past that you moved around a lot because of your father's career. So can you, so I'm assuming it made it easier for you later in life because you had to adapt so much. So for our listeners, what could we say it was like the greatest lesson that you took from this need to adapt to your professional and all your acknowledgments in life?

Courtney
Okay, sure. Yeah, being an Army, I hate when they say Army brat, but an Army brat and growing up as such, we moved all over the place. And not only that, even if we stayed in one spot, my father would go what they call PCOS or PCS, where they do a permanent like change of station. So he would be elsewhere in the world and trying to kind of figure that out too. And not being able to see your parents, you know, it's difficult. Having to move around a lot, I wouldn't say that it was easy. It has helped me in some aspects of my life where yes, I am able to kind of adapt and fit in and like my environment that I'm in at that time. But then there's also that social aspect where I feel as though I'm already an introvert, self-proclaimed introvert. And I feel like it's harder for me to make friends. And I kind of grew up knowing that, oh, I'm only here for a little while. So you don't want to become too attached to people around you because then you'll have to say goodbye. And the pain that comes with that or trying to like. Sustain like long distance friendships. It's quite difficult. Most people stray away from like long distance relationships, romantic relationships, same thing. Trying to maintain like a long distance friendship can be very challenging, especially like if you're in school for science or a demanding degree where a lot of your time is already allocated towards studying, towards preparing for exams and doing well in that arena. So it's helped me. It has also hurt me a little bit. I think I'm not the most extroverted person by far. It's not my comfort zone, but I feel like it also kind of has helped me because I can be somewhat extroverted when I choose to be. It's not that often. It's not what I'm most comfortable in, but I feel as though when it's time for business or it's time to make sure that something is completed, I go in with like that mindset of, okay, let me come in there, greet everyone, manners, respect is something you learn also as being a military kid. So it's helped me.

Karthik
So the introvertedness that you're talking about, it's really interesting to me. So from your perspective is, you said that you can be extroverted when you want to be. And so it's clearly something that you feel comfortable in, obviously, so that's the person you're portraying yourself to be and you're most comfortable in your true self. The introvertedness going back to having to move so much, does the introvertedness come from that self-sufficient, independent person that you have sort of molded yourself to be not to ruffle feathers, you know?

Courtney
Absolutely.

Karthik
Is that where that comes from?

Courtney
Absolutely. Yeah.

Karthik
And the extrovertedness, I'm sure, is that something that you make attempts towards or is that something that's just true to yourself?

Courtney
I feel like it's truly myself. It's, I'm more so... I'm extroverted once I get to know people, but it takes time. Right, right. I'm very kind of reserved when I first meet people. If you ask my family, I am the craziest child. I'm the most unpredictable child, like you'd be surprised, but most people, they wouldn't guess that if they've just met me. It just takes a little bit for me to warm up or if I'm in a room with someone that's very extroverted and outgoing. I love that because then that kind of draws it out of me a bit too. Like one of my friends, currently like at the dental school in my program, I built like a really strong friendship with this guy named Dylan. Dylan is so bubbly, he's so amazing. And it's funny because if you look on the surface, you wouldn't kind of expect that we would be friends because from the outside looking in, we seem very different. But it's just like we gel so well because of that. And I feel like we have like the best time because we're just always clowning around and finding the funny and difficult situations. And I guess trauma bonding in a PhD program together has been a lot of fun too.

Adriana
So when you were saying that, I just was thinking about my best friend, like my soul sister. She is extremely extrovert. And I felt like we blended so well because she was always making the jokes and I was always laughing, you know, it was kind of like a partnership. So when you started talking, when there is somebody extrovert, that sometimes you become even more introvert, right? Is this something because you feel there is no space for your voice in that environment? Or is this something related to just, you know, different personalities?

Courtney
I think it's a mixture of both. It depends on where you are and then who's in it. I like to be the fly on the wall and pay attention to how other people interact with the people in the room. And very quickly I pick up on that. So if I kind of feel as though my comment won't be as valued or it'll just be swept under the rug or kind of just dismissed, it's like, eh, okay. Sometimes it needs to be said, depending on what's happening. And sometimes it's like, eh, if it's not something that's big that's going to make that much of a difference, I kind of fall back in a sense where I kind of can gauge which kind of direction to go in.

HOST
That brings a lot of questions to mind. Again, as my background as well, I've moved around a lot, obviously not as much as you in that sense. But my family's never lived in the same continent pretty much my entire life. So one thing that I very quickly became familiar with from a boarding school background, from a traveling background and things like that, is code switching, assimilation, sort of adapting.

Courtney
Yes.

Karthik
So it's always difficult to sort of maintain that fine line between code switching and adapting and sort of being true to yourself. So can you talk a little bit about situations when A, code switching you feel was just sort of automatic, and B, if you didn't, would that have negative consequences?

Courtney
That's interesting because I feel like I've kind of played into both. In undergrad, when you first go into school, you're much younger. You don't really know yourself. And I also went to a private school for undergrad. And it's a very small kind of, I don't want to say like elite, but there were like very affluent students that were the demographic there. And coming into that was so different for me. I'm coming in from an army base. I'm coming in from a town that's like a melting pot. I'm going into this arena. I feel as though I assimilated and I hated every second of it. And I feel like in that time there, I felt as though I kind of lost myself in the first few years. And in my senior year, I started to realize, this isn't for me. And at the second I realized that, I started performing better in school. I started doing a great job. And things kind of looked up for me from that point. So I kind of learned then and there, like that's not the best, especially for me, just personally. And then as I've gotten older, I've become more comfortable in who I am as a person and what I have to bring to the table. And then kind of just voicing my opinion and kind of sticking up for myself more, has been a journey. But code switching, definitely. Just because of my background, ethnically, where I was raised, living in different places too. It's kind of just like coming into academia and you're in a room where no one can relate to you as far as kind of like your likes and dislikes and things like that. I definitely code switch. I've mastered that along the way.

HOST
Have you found yourself thinking that code switching is more convenient at the time? Is that sort of a reason? At least for me, I think that has a lot to do with it. But did you find that, hey, if I code switch, I don't have to explain everything else?

Courtney
Yes, absolutely. I remember my first year here and I was speaking to someone and I said, yeah, you know, like the vibe is just different. And instantly that person took that term and tried to turn it and use it against me in a sense, where it was just like, well, what do you mean by that? Like vibe, like tried to play dumb as if they don't know what that even means. Just tried to make me feel uncomfortable intentionally. And I was just like, okay. Like I kind of learned like right then and there, like, okay, this is, I know what I need to do. of just to get the job done and to also look out for myself. Um, so I definitely code switch quite a bit, especially in academia. It's unfortunate that you have to do that, but in certain situations and, um, what you're faced with, you kind of sort of have to, unfortunately, like at home, like my husband will tell you, like, I listen to Bad Bunny. Like, that's like my thing. Like I speak about all these things and like here, no one would know that.

Adriana
So, um, when we started talking about being introvert, you also mentioned that sometimes being introvert is not being mean to another person, is not to feel the person is feeling that you're rude to them. So can you talk a little bit about this experience to our audience?

Courtney
Yeah, it's something I struggled with my entire life. It's because when people think that you're quiet and you're so reserved and they kind of misinterpret that as being this person's cold, they're not interested in what's being said. They're not paying attention to what's being said. They have resting blank face. Um, things like that. I've always gotten throughout my life and I hate it. Like it's something that always is kind of in the back of my mind. Um, and it's a struggle, but I feel like once people kind of get to know me kind of like the ice starts to to melt a little bit. Um, and then what's the second part? I'm sorry.

Adriana
Which kind of advice would you give to the introverts that are listening to us now?

Courtney
Yeah. Um, be yourself. Like it's okay to be an introvert. You don't have to be the center of attention. You don't have to kind of be the person to grab the spotlight from others or it's okay to be quiet and reserved. Manners are a good thing. Like people, more people need to have manners. Um, and kind of, kind of, use that in life. Um, I know that comes with time and that comes with truly getting to know yourself and knowing your self-worth and, um, looking and doing a lot of introspective work, um, to feel confident in just being yourself. I know it's very crazy, um, when you're young, even as a female, I feel like those things kind of come into play, like outside influences, but it's okay to be an introvert. Keep being yourself. People, you'll find your people that really value you for who you are as a person. You don't have to downplay yourself just to fit in or make yourself seem small to fit in with the people around you. Just continue what you're doing and if people don't appreciate it, then you know that's not your group, that's not your people.

Karthik
What would you say to our extroverts out there who, who by default, you know, tend to be more introverted in many settings but truly are extroverted? So what, what advice would have for, for folks like that or like yourself?

Courtney
That's a great question because I actually wanted to address this, um, just as a little mini backstory. Just recently, I had a class with a bunch of students, um, on the clinical side and we had presentations and there were only three graduate students in the room. The rest were all dental and so they don't really know us, um, and it's kind of awkward like sitting in a room. You're not really able to interact with the other students and you stick out like a sore thumb because you don't have scrubs on, um, and one person that I actually truly adore because I think that she's very sweet, um, was asked a question by another student like, oh, like, who is she? Like, what is she? Do you know her? And she's like, yeah, like, she's really sweet but she can be really cold sometimes, too. Like, she's hot and cold and I'm like, wow. I didn't, okay, like, I'm sorry, but like, so like that kind. It kind of caught me off guard and kind of hurt my feelings a little bit because I actually genuinely liked this person, like this person. So I would say, like, to the extroverts, like, calm down, like, let us exist in the same space. We don't have to be bouncing off of the walls also to have a good time. Sometimes, you know, it's okay to just kind of include us in things. We like to also be included. We may not voice it, but we also like to be included. If we say no, don't feel bad. Like, if we turn down plans to go out in a big social gathering, don't take it personally. That's just kind of how we are, or at least me, for sure. But I would say just allow us to exist in the same space. Like, it's very chill for us to be included. Like, it's not going to, like, change, like, the scenery. It's not going to change the vibe in the room or how people perceive us. But we're also, like, good people. We like to have fun. It just takes a little more for us to kind of warm up to people and be okay in that space. So, yeah.

Karthik
Interesting. Speaking of perception. So I've thought about this a bit, and you know, in general, you're absolutely right. Like, people who are introverted tend to be misunderstood as being cold, conceited.

Courtney
Yes.

HOST
You know? So do you think that comes from a place where the people who are thinking about them being cold or conceited is because they're not getting the validation that they want? So do you think it's about how they feel you're perceiving them?

Courtney
Yeah, yeah. That's a very good question because I think that's a part of it. Right. If you're not feeding into what they're putting out there and you're not kind of, like, going along with the story or whatever they're trying to say, like, oh, can you believe this? And da-da-da-da. And they go into, like, this long, like, just, I don't know, like, extremely excited kind of, like, story. And we're just like, cool. So, like, I feel as though if we're not giving them that excitement back to them, it's not being reciprocated. I feel as though, yeah, like, in a sense, if they're not feeling validated in that moment, then they're automatically going to either shut down or shun you because of it. So it's kind of like a catch-22. It's like, from the introverts, we see it one way. If you're an extrovert, you may see it a different way. So I don't know. I think it's a part of it.

Karthik
But it's almost also like people are coming into a conversation with the expectation of what the response should be.

Courtney
Right. Exactly. And that is the problem. That is such a problem. And sometimes you'll be, like, in a situation where you find someone who recognizes that and they're the best person and you kind of just are like, yeah, like, thank you. Like, they're very insightful people, right? Right. But unfortunately for the majority, that's not the case. Yeah.

Adriana
Can we go back to the active listening when in a conversation? I don't know if this also plays a role, but sometimes people, they just listen to respond. Yeah. To talk back. And since the introverts, they need to process, they need more time to process, right? How do you see, like, when you're having a conversation, how do you see yourself trying to fit in the conversation if you really need to?

Courtney
Yeah, I'm terrible with that. I hate small talk with a passion. I will run the other way if I feel as though there's someone coming that I know is loves to talk, but they don't talk about anything. I'm very impatient also in that sense where if we're not getting something done, like accomplishing something, I can't. Like, even in meetings, we will have meetings that are an hour long. And by the end of it, I'm like, what did we actually accomplish? Like, I will zone out and I'm fully responsible in doing that. I know it's a bad thing, but. I feel as though people don't actively listen. And unfortunately, for many introverts especially, we're looking for that exit door right away. So it's like, oh, Courtney, how's your day? How's everything going? How's your family? I'm like, great, thanks, bye. Like, automatically. And sometimes I do that because like the, I don't wanna say like feeling anxious or that anxiety that kind of like riles up a little bit. If you're unprepared for a conversation, sometimes I'm just like, I just wanna be left alone, man. Like, just like today is just a very like exhausting day. I had to speak a lot today. Like, I'm just not in that mood to have a full blown conversation. So actively listening, capable of it. I feel as though introverts are not the best at it, in my opinion, yeah.

Adriana
Uh-huh, yeah, we talked about this before. So our co-founder, Susan, she told us like, don't say how are you when the meetings is starting because I can't start telling how I feel. So also find the time to have this small talk and the space, there is time for everything, right?

Karthik
And it's important, like don't ask how are you unless you really wanna find out how someone is. It's not, you know, I get it that it's a sort of a nicety that's become cultural practice, but I understand what you mean. It's interesting because my wife is also a very introverted extrovert, right? There are days, she does student services. So she talks to students on a daily basis a lot, but when it comes to ordering food or talking to someone on the phone, you do it. When it comes to dealing with somebody who's doing work on the house, you deal with it. I don't wanna talk to people. I understand, and I'm a very extroverted extrovert. So it works out, but. I understand what you're saying. Sometimes you just don't wanna have that conversation or you don't have that bandwidth, and you should be able to excuse yourself from that. Yeah, yeah, you would think so. I wanna ask somewhat of a different question just based on your diverse experiences in so many different places and things like that. Have you ever been put in a position where you don't feel like you belong? Or, that's probably a harsh way of asking, not that you don't feel like you belong, you feel like, you know, I am not, I stick out like a sore thumb sort of a thing.

Courtney
Constantly, story of my life. As a person that's been pursuing like, you know, a higher level or like collegiate degrees, professional degrees, as you climb that ladder, you see less and less of the people that fit like your demographic, right? Just based on ethnicity, based on race alone, even gender. Sometimes you'll see like in research it's a male-dominated field, and dentistry, it's a male-dominated field. It's changing, it has changed in recent years, which I'm all about, I'm here for that. But as I've gone or progressed throughout, I've noticed that, and I feel as though I don't really fit in, in a sense, where, I love sports, it's kind of my thing, I love cars, you wouldn't know that, right? Because I feel as though in these certain spaces they're very, they like to talk about themselves and their accomplishments a lot, and I am not that person. I hate it with a passion. When people are like, oh, how are you, Dr. Lucas? I'm like, yeah, no, nope, I'm good. Like that sort of thing. So like as I've gone through school, unfortunately, like I feel like I stick out more and more and more. As I've kind of progressed, which is always kind of like a bad thing because then you feel kind of isolated or you feel alone or you feel as though you can't relate to people. Full disclosure, like I'm older than most of my peers in the program. And for me, that was kind of problematic too. Because I'm like, oh, like some of you could possibly be my kid. Like that's creepy. Like I kind of struggled with that in the beginning because I was just like, I don't know, man. Like it was just different, right? And trying to be okay with that has kind of taken time. I'm still kind of weirded out by it, not going to lie. But you know, what can you do? It's just, you gotta keep going and do what you wanna do.

Karthik
Slightly on a different perspective along those same lines of what you were talking about with regards to being in male-centric fields, male-centric arenas, with regards to being somebody who's achieved a lot in those areas as well. As a woman of color, do you feel like you had to do more? Do you feel like you had to put in more efforts or more sort of things to make sure that it receives the recognition it truly deserves?

Courtney
So to make some people uncomfortable, the answer is yes. Absolutely, because you feel as though you have to do more than the average. Because if not, it's instantly called out, right? It's instantly questioned. Your even placement in the program will be questioned if you don't perform to that person's expectation. Even if you turn things around, their view of you is going to remain, which sucks and it's not fair, right? Because I have seen that and experienced that for myself where I've had classmates that have underperformed during a semester. And even myself, I've underperformed during a semester and was able to turn things around, but that perception lingered, right? And it's like, well, why really is that such a problem? But it's okay for other students. So you start seeing that and you start noticing a pattern and that becomes like a problem, right? Because it's called out in your mind, like, okay, clearly there's an issue here. Why is it that there's only one person in the room that's of color, that's a woman or whatever, that's being treated in a certain manner, but you see so many graces are given to like your counterparts, right? To other people that are, you know, like Caucasian male, that demographic, and it's frustrating and things are starting to change where we're starting to see more diversity. And unfortunately, because in recent law, that's kind of been called into question. But absolutely, like that happens all the time. I've experienced it. I've had my background questioned. I've had other people who came in with zero experience that were favored and put in place for opportunities over me, which was uncomfortable. And honestly, like it hurts, right? It's like I've done all of these things, but yet you still question my ability. You still question my confidence in a way, in a manner where I can go into a room and do a presentation and do a great job. Why is it that you're putting all your hope and faith in this other person that doesn't have the experience, that's never participated in research before, that's never done these things, when someone comes in with a background or a resume or CV that's chocked full of like different experiences, that would be a good option for that, right? So in the space, unfortunately, in academia, it's kind of like that unspoken thing that the ugly thing in the room, no one wants to really speak about, or people try to ignore or downplay. And I feel as though I've kind of gotten myself in trouble a little bit for speaking out against that. But I feel like that's needed, right?

Karthik
Yeah. Yeah. And it's almost like when you do perform and excel in something, it's highlighted in a way which is almost seems like somebody's surprised.

Courtney
Yes. Or it's not acknowledged at all. Yeah. Yeah. Fair. Right.

Adriana
It's so complex, because there are so many aspects of your identity that may be causing that, but you really don't know. So it's about what is in your head, you are feeling not included, not acknowledged, but you don't know why. Exactly. You cannot pinpoint if it's your color, if it's your ethnicity, your gender, what is it, or everything. Right. Yeah.

Courtney
I've been asked that once before, someone kept trying to push me in that direction to say that an individual was mistreating me or acting a certain way. Oh, well, are you saying that person's racist? Is that what it is? Do you think it's because of race? And I'm like, I am not the judge of that. I can't speak to what's in someone's heart. Only they know that answer. And it's not my place to say so, because I genuinely don't know, but, you know, it's, it's one of those things where it's like, there are racists in this world. They are open and out and proud about it. Um, but I am not the person to say, definitively, this is the reason why. It's because I'm an African-American female. It's because I have like Hispanic lineage. It's because I'm a woman. It's because who knows, you never really know. I just know that what you're doing is wrong and it sucks. That's it.

Karthik
Yeah. It's also, sometimes you get, you get the, you get the comparative person, right? Somebody that compares somebody else of a demographic that you also share. Like, oh, we had this person and they did this. Why can't.

Courtney
Yeah. Same thing. It sucks. It's that's I've seen that it's happened to me. I don’t know.

Karthik
So what, what advice would you have for folks out there who feel that imposter syndrome, who feel that they don't belong in a certain place, but still have a lot to give a lot to bring? What advice would you have for folks or listeners who are, who feel that way?

Courtney
I would say just stay true to yourself, stay true to what is it, what it is that you want in life. Remind yourself daily of your goal. You're going to be uncomfortable at times. It's the unfortunate reality. It's going to happen at some point in your life, whether it's now or whether it's down the road, they're going to have naysayers. You're going to have people that don't fully believe in you. But you kind of just have to kind of stick to your path, your journey. If you give up now, you're going to fail. Like that's a guarantee. Like if you give up now, you stop now, you're not going to achieve what you set out to do. If you keep trying, at least, you know, along the way, you're going to open doors. They're going to become better. You're going to learn different aspects that you can utilize and in your life, whether it's in your career, whether it's in your social life, you're going to learn things along the way. So why not just stay on your path, on your journey and continue? Because otherwise, what's the alternative? You kind of just, you give up and then you have to live with regret. And regret to me is like the worst thing. It's like, what if I could have, would have, should have, right? You don't want to be like 70 years old and say, I never found my passion in life. I was never able to do this, even though I know that I think that I would be great at it. And unfortunately, some people are out there, right? So you kind of just have to trust yourself, trust the process, and kind of keep driving and forging, forging ahead for sure.

Karthik
And you can do that while being introverted.

Adriana
You can do that, yeah. You can do that. That's a benefit, right? So when you were talking about how you felt and you couldn't pinpoint the reason, but it sucked, right? So let's try to see the other person's side. So we also need to give the benefit of the doubt, right? Maybe it wasn't the intent to do that. Right, right. So how do you try to balance, to not jump to judgment, and even if people are putting words in your mouth, this person is this, this person is that. How do you manage this in your head?

Courtney
That is the benefit and beauty of being an introvert. You pay attention to patterns. You don't jump to conclusions right away. You're like, oh, that's interesting. And you kind of like are mindful of it, and you watch it, right? So especially in my case, I will kind of sit back and kind of like observe in a way like, okay, well, that was interesting. I don't know what's happening there. Clearly something's going on, in my opinion, but give the person the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they just had a bad day. Anything could have happened. Okay, that's understandable, but give it time and kind of see, because with time, someone's going to reveal to you who they really are. You can put on a mask for a day, and everyone think that you're this great person, you're a genuine person, but with time, you can't run from that. Eventually, it's going to start showing. These patterns are going to start showing. That's going to show up in conversation and interactions, also with you observing how they behave with other people as well. So I kind of usually kind of, that's my default. I kind of just sit back and I kind of see. I keep trying. I'm also kind of. I'm kind of that very spicy person that if I keep giving you chance after chance intentionally, at some point there's a breaking point where I'm just like, okay, enough is enough. Like cut the mess. So it's kind of, you kind of have to use that time to give them opportunities and see how things change. Cause even I could have a bad day. My radar could be thrown off. I don't know, because I'm in a different headspace because something happened to me. That's something that could happen. So I kind of just let it play out and kind of circle back and think through things, which as an introvert is always our default. It is somewhat of our downfall because we analyze everything, right? We think things through, we process the conversations in our heads, even sometimes like, oh, was that weird? How like I agreed with that person? I don't know. Like you think about things, right? So I kind of use that to my advantage in those situations. Yeah.

Karthik
It's interesting you talking about that being a default because when I think about it, for me, like reactionary or being defensive tends to be a default for most human beings in terms of like when they encounter something. So I think for me, at least it takes a lot of effort for me to hold back and say, hey, there's a different perspective to this. Like if you get cut off on the, on the parkway, you know, I, I have to hold myself to think about, hey, maybe they're rushing to the hospital, which might not be true, which might, they might just be cutting me off. But my sanity is preserved if I give myself that opportunity to think about the other perspective.

Adriana
So I think, okay, I understand. Also, always having the mantra in your head. It's not personal. It's not personal. And sometimes it's hard, right? Because you become defensive, as you said. But I think that's the best solution is for you to take a step back and think about it. It's not personal. Right. And the reasons, we'll never know, but it's not. It's not against you, right, as a person. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right.

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♪ I still have stories to tell ♪ ♪ I feel ♪ ♪ I still have stories to tell ♪