Susan
Well, welcome Dr. Sean Simon to Who We Are Inside. We are just so thrilled to have you here. And I'm going to let my good friend Karthik introduce our listeners to you today.

Karthik
Thank you. Thanks, Dr. Sean Simon. Dr. Sean Simon earned both his BS and DMD at the University of Pittsburgh. He continued his training through a general practice residency at St. Elizabeth Hospital in Youngstown, Ohio. Following the completion of his residency, he entered into private practice as an associate dentist. He concurrently treated an underserved rural population in an outreach of clinical setting. Dr. Simon joined faculty of the School of Dental Medicine in 2003. He's acted as a clinical instructor in the Department of Restorative Dentistry and Comprehensive Care, providing preparation to pre-doctoral students in both simulation clinic and treatment modules. Dr. Simon accepted the position of Director of Continuing Education Department in 2021, I believe. I believe, yes. Dr. Simon established his own private practice in suburban Pittsburgh in 2005, where he has provided a broad spectrum of procedures in a family dentistry settings. Dr. Simon, thank you so much for being with us today.

Sean
Thank you for inviting me. I'm happy to be here. Thanks.

Karthik
So Dr. Simon, you'd mentioned providing value and not being underestimated as one of the things that you wanted to talk about today. Can you explain for us what value is to you and why you experience that feeling of being under or being underestimated?

Sean
Sure. I think it all starts with like one word, which would be expectations. Obviously, I have a disability. And when I say walk into the room, but essentially roll into a room, I feel like if people don't know me, they have preconceived conceptions of what I am, what I will be and what I have to offer. So I just discussed this with someone the other day that sometimes there's a need, I feel a need to show value in that room that I'm not what they may already have a bias towards already. I see it a lot, particularly people who don't know me at all or know anything about me where I'm essentially they're meeting me cold, and I'm just this guy in a wheelchair. I've said before, like I've had instances and one not too long ago where I was at a store and the clerk was talking to my daughter, who's a young adult, rather than me, because I think she thought she wasn't sure that maybe my disabilities were intellectual or cognitive, but didn't really give me the chance to show that. And my daughter is oblivious to the whole thing. But, you know, my face is probably turning red while because I'm talking to me. I'm right here and I'm the one that, you know, she's not making decisions for me. So it's always battling those expectations. And sometimes there's a feeling that you need to be over accomplished or do better than you technically could to make up for that difference in what people are expecting out of you. So I try to get away from that. And I think I've done better as the years have gone. But there's always that you feel like you go into a room with a disadvantage and then just trying to build up. You're not trying to get higher. You're just trying to get up to that even level where you feel like people are giving you an even cause. So that's with initially meeting people. Once people get to know you, it's a lot easier, a lot easier to deal with. They know who I am. And it's just there's definitely a bias. Yeah. Yeah.

Susan
You know, I want to share a story you told during your Cupid interview. I'm not sure if you remember this. So you were talking about advice that you used to give fourth year dental students about taking advantage of their opportunity because they could change someone's life. And I asked you if you had a patient that came to mind when you think about changing someone's life. And you talked about your parents' neighbor. Yes. Who felt that having to wear a mask during COVID during the pandemic was so freeing because she didn't have to worry about people judging her if she smiled. And you had reconstructed her smile so she could smile on her son's wedding day. Yes. To me, there is no greater value than helping a patient do things that they most want to do. And hearing that story brought me to tears then. And like, it still gives me like the shivers now because I think you really hit on really how we should be defining value in health care and also in society. So when you talk about providing value, are we really talking about sort of recentering the idea of value around being human focused rather than being like return on investment capital focused? Like what does providing value mean for you?

Sean
Absolutely. And I just had – we had a process we call senior case presentations where I meet with all the seniors and they have to do a presentation. And I try to instill in them that they put a lot of work in, they've worked hard. A lot of them are looking at when they leave here how much money they're going to make, how they're going to do this, how that. And I said, that's all well and good. You should be able to make a good living. But being a good clinician, doing a service to the community and being of value is more important. And it's not – they're not mutually exclusive. You can do both. And you're a professional. You got into this to take not making a lot of money or driving a nice car. I'm not sure the message gets through to everybody. I think a lot of those people had ideas of what they were going to get out of their profession before they got there. But I hope if I reach five, it's worth it. Unfortunately, with how the health care has changed a lot in the last few years, particularly after COVID, it's a lot more driven by money and insurance. And I really feel as a profession, my profession, not speaking in medical care in general, but I'm sure they have similar issues, that we don't care about the individual patient as much. They're a commodity rather than – that bothers me. I'm actually retiring from private practice to be full-time at Pitt. And that's the reason I'm glad I'm getting out for that reason, because I'm frustrated by that. But by teaching at Pitt, I hope that I can hopefully pull back a little bit and make some effect there. But I think we also have the idea when we have a patient that comes in that is wearing a mask because they're afraid to smile too, that we need to see that patient is not like, this is what I can do and make money off them. But also, I can change that person's life. I can – or maybe not change it, but make it better. And maybe that little increase in value that they give them, because now they have value. They can walk out and they feel a little bit better. They can smile. They can interact with people. Maybe that leads to something else, and that builds onto – and continues to build. And then maybe they do something for somebody else too. We're all here together. And I always tell my kids, because – and they're teenagers, so they roll their eyes a lot. And when I say a lot, I mean constantly they're rolling their eyes at me. But I said, if you can change one thing in one person's life, then your life has been of value. It's just one little thing. And that's all it takes for somebody. The side note to that I tell them is that if you can make one person think that they believe in you – or you believe in them. I'm sorry. I messed that up. But if you can make one person think that they have someone that believes in them, that's enough to power somebody through something, whether it be through adversity or be successful. But sometimes we all need that little word of advice or word of encouragement. And I think that really can make a difference. Yeah.

Susan
I have a follow-up question, which is, who has been that person for you?

Sean
I think my parents. My parents. And my wife, obviously, too. My wife is more – she's a little bit tougher on me in the saying that, you know, you got to go out into this. We don't do excuses. And that's another part of it. There's no excuses. You have to be a part of society. But my parents who knew me when I was healthy before I got sick and went through that issue with me, I mean, no matter what, they're behind me and they make me believe in myself. And there were never excuses. There were never limitations put on me. And kind of getting back to what the conversation started with, with expectations, I never want to feel or have anybody feel like they have limitations put on them. You don't want to be a disadvantage before you start. Yeah.

Karthik
Yeah. I have a quick question about that. In terms of expectations and letting other people define expectations that you have for yourself, that might be different as well. Is there – what would you have – is there any advice you have for our listeners out there who might be at a position where the expectations set on them are not as high as they can actually achieve? And how would you say that they should overcome that belief of I can do more than what is expected out of me?

Sean
Um, I'm not sure if there's an easy answer for that. I wish there was. I think that my wife will say that I'm stubborn. And that stubborn is a double-edged – stubbornness is a double-edged sword because where it drives her nuts sometimes, it won't let me stop with what I want to do. And I was like that before I was sick, before I had my health issue. If I – people said they didn't think I could do it or – and it's kind of an old trope, you know, like the world's against me. But there is some truth to that, that if somebody – if I feel like I can't – somebody says you can't do that, then I really want to do it. So that stubbornness has helped me a lot.

Susan
I just saw something, of course, online that reminded me of that. I want to share and get your thoughts on this. So my son has a disability and so I've been following a lot of different folks on Instagram with things like, you know, cerebral palsy and autism and, you know, other like gross mobility challenges and other things. And this one gentleman was talking about how he has cerebral palsy and he was told he would never be able to do a zipper. And he tried all these different jackets with all these specialty things. And, you know, at one point he had a jacket on with a zipper and he asked his one friend, you know, can you zip this for me? And she's like, well, why don't you try? And he's like, oh, I've tried. I can't do it. And she's like, let me see. And she's watching him do it and she goes, well, you have to pull down on the other side to get the zipper up. And he was like, that was all I needed and I did it. Like – and something that, you know, as a parent, I would teach any child to do. Yeah. And he's like, this is me, you know, doing my zipper. So I'm curious, what does that bring up for you as I kind of tell that story?

Sean
The small victories add up to big ones. Yeah. That's a small victory, but it's a victory. Yeah. Yeah. It's one more step into being where he wants to be. Yeah. Yeah. You tell that story, I always think too that, you know, Ray Charles, the singer and player, he used to pick out all his own clothes and they could never figure – have you heard this story? Yeah. They could never figure out how he could match all his clothes. They didn't know that in each outfit he had an braille so they could match him up and so he could match up his outfits and no one really – only his insiders knew that he would do that. But he had figured out a way to make the system work for him just like the zipper.

Susan
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that's really where, you know, increasing awareness and having folks think about these things is so critical because I watched the Crip Camp about, oh gosh, about a year ago now and it was such a fresh way of looking at things that like, you know, these individuals are not a trouble. You know, they're not a problem. Like, our society is the problem and the way that things are developed, the things that we value, which are generally, you know, monetarily based, like – and I was so grateful to have had the experience to watch that before having my son because I think, you know, it's hard to think about, you know, a child that might not be able to do what other kids can do his age or, you know, beyond. Do you think we've gotten any better at making society – I don't want to say accepting because we shouldn't have to be accepting but like accessible.

Sean
I think there's definitely been improvements in accessibility. I think there's more opportunity. I think where we need to go now is compassion is nice but I don't need it. I want dignity. So I think that's where we need to go. I think now everybody's compassionate. They try to make everything nice and easy but – and that's I'll take dignity out of you there.

Susan
I think that's your button. You know, we talk about pinback buttons on this show, those giant obnoxious big metal buttons that you wear and I think – I'm trying to remember. Compassion is nice but I don't need it. Give me your dignity. I love it. That's it. That is it. Yes.

Karthik
I'm sorry but I have to go back to another sort of follow-up question just based on those expectations and since we're talking about buttons and compassion and dignity and things like that. So what would you – for our listeners out there, we talked about how listeners can get out of the idea of the expectations that they can achieve more. Going back to the other side of things, what would you have to say for our listeners who encounter people and are quick to judge just based on what they see? What advice would you have to say for our listeners?

Sean
Just talk to them. When you look at them, almost be blind to whatever their disability or issue is and just talk to them the same way you would talk to someone who apparently looks healthy. I think we all have these issues. Some of them are more visible than others. So mine is obviously very visible but there might be a guy walking down the street that has a lot of mental health issues that I will look by him and he looks perfectly fine. But his disability might be more of a hindrance to his lifestyle than mine. So to just – I think look at everybody the same is probably the best way to say it for me.

Karthik
Thank you.

Susan
I love that you brought that up and thinking about this because I feel like we a lot about microaggressions in different spaces. But I think that the idea of a microaggression towards someone with a disability I think isn't talked about enough. One that I experience I guess on behalf of my son all the time is he's got a medical chart a mile long. So anytime we would meet a new provider, they would come in and they would say something like, oh my gosh, he's so interactive. He's so happy. He's so cute.

Sean
You just want to hit him, right?

Susan
Yeah. It's like well, what made you think he wouldn't be any of those things? And it's that bias and I think that they're I guess maybe trying to be nice but it really is like offensive. It's condescending. Yeah. So that's what I would say is that for people who are not as familiar, sometimes just as you put it, like treating folks just the way you would treat any other patient, any other colleague, any other student because you're putting them in a box that's not fair.

Sean
Yeah. I may have had initially more issues with that than I do even now because my path to where I'm at, I was healthy most of my life up until I was college aged and then I had a slow and then a very rapid decline in my health. And I had a lot, in all honesty, I had a lot of anger issues, not on anybody else but within myself trying to deal with things. And that stubbornness where I say it was a double-edged sword, that was a bad thing at those times because I tried to do things I didn't and people would really upset me when they tried to help me. I didn't want any help. And over time, I've realized that sometimes it's nice to have a little bit of help with that dignity. They have to come together. It can't be just feeling bad for you and doing it because they feel bad. There has to be that dignity coupled with it. So there's definitely, I can see where you feel that way and I still feel that way too but maybe just a little bit lighter now.

Karthik
Yeah. So it's interesting that you talked about, so microaggressions and going back to that idea of we see what we want to see and sort of base our opinions. It's similar to, I'm assuming, what a lot of people of color, for example, or me, for example, people come up to, oh your English is so good. Why did you expect it not to be good?

Sean
Why do you have a lower bar?

Karthik
Exactly. And so my question, I guess, is I've found myself at many times in my life overcompensate for that. Have you felt that way?

Sean
Yeah. I feel I've probably done, tried to do things physically, not so much now, but where I probably, if I would spend an hour doing something that if I had somebody to help me, it would take me five minutes. Something as I drop something. Okay, well now I got to figure out, I got to turn into MacGyver now and figure out how I'm going to pick that up. Rather than saying, having somebody find it for me and pick it up. I'll sit there with pencils and tools and tape stuff together and try to drag it up myself rather than asking someone. I don't do that so much anymore. Okay. And sometimes when you ask somebody, maybe that makes them feel a little bit better too because they feel like they did their good deed for the day. But yeah, definitely I have bit off my nose to spite my face at times. Yeah, or cut off my nose. Sorry, not cut off my nose, but cut off my nose to spite my face.

Susan
I really appreciate that story because I'm experiencing it now with a two-year-old who is just a typical two-year-old. But it's good to let him dictate what he wants help with versus what he wants to be able to do himself. I want to go back to your parents and how they were really important in helping you navigate through these changes. Can you talk more about that?

Sean
Sure. So my initial health issue started probably in my early 20s. I wasn't married, hadn't even met my wife yet. And though I didn't live at home, my parents were basically my main family. I have three brothers, all healthy, no issues. I'm the one anomaly in the whole family. But whether it be calling doctors and specialists to see if there was anything, they were an advocate, just like I'm sure you're an advocate for your son, to the point that sometimes I'm like, settle down. But for instance, I have a car that is fully operational. I can pull my wheelchair in and I drive it. My mother actually was the one who said, hey, I saw a guy driving a van and I think you should get one like that. I was in my 30s at that point and I was on my own, but it never ends. And it'll never end with your son. You'll always be there. But just knowing that they had my back is a big, big thing. Because when you have a condition like I do, where I don't have any family members to have it, I don't have any cousins. I'm the only one. There is an isolation feeling there, where you're completely isolated. And to this day, I'll still say it. I'll have a bad day and I'll say to my wife or my kids, I know you know what I'm going through, but you really don't understand. And then I say, I pray to God you never have to understand. But you still feel somewhat isolated. But knowing you have your parents or you know I have my wife or my kids is a world of good to me. It really is. And back when I started going through all this, really my parents, my brothers have always been helpful too, but they're brothers. Having my parents there was enormous and still is to this day.

Susan
The advocacy part, I think, is so critical. And it's a full-time job. I'm sure your family maybe felt that way too. And a job that I do takes precedent over any other job that I could possibly have. But thank you for sharing about the isolation, because it's something that I think about. I have one other child. He's older. He's able-bodied as far as I can tell. And he'll ask me sometimes, why can't B run and play tag with me? Why can't he talk yet? And it's hard to be able to explain that. And then also to make sure that I'm not so much time with B that my older son is feeling like his needs are not important. And trying to navigate that balance, I think, is really tough. But yeah, I think that you were talking in the interview about, I don't know if it was a gentleman who works in the grocery store or if it's somebody who you just pass in the grocery store who also uses a wheelchair and he always gives you a fist bump.

Sean
Yeah, we're part of a club.

Susan
Yeah, yeah. And I think that there is something about that solidarity that even if you don't know that person well, it's to know that you're not alone. And so when I see other families who are going through similar challenges, obviously, with different types of medical stuff, or when I was in the NICU and I would see the other NICU parents, I just feel like you form this bond of, I don't know you, but I get you a little bit. Do you find that to be helpful in when you're having those tough days? Or what is helpful on those really hard days?

Sean
This is going to sound kind of silly, but the way I get through those really tough days are I think about I've had worse days and I plow through those. And if I got through those, I can get through this. That's probably... I do that pretty regularly. Not regularly, because I don't honestly have a lot of horrible days anymore. But when I do, that's what I do. I've been through worse. There were darker times. I got through those. I can get through this. And let's move on.

Susan
Yeah. It's a belief in yourself. Yeah. Like, I got this.

Sean
Yeah. It's almost like, okay, I felt sorry for myself for five minutes. That's done. Let's move on. Because if you don't, you'll wallow. Going back to the grocery store, I do feel that there has been progress made that I feel like people with disabilities are out more. That's a huge benefit. The fact that maybe 20 years ago, that guy wasn't even working there. So I think that's a good thing. And you look at that guy, too, and you think he's been through some bad days, too. And he's out here. Yeah. It's he got through it so I can get through it. So the club part, there definitely is a part that it's you kind of an I don't want to say inspire, but you see that they're doing it so you can do it.

Susan
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that if there is one like silver lining to social media, which we won't get on a tangent about, but it is the visibility of people with disability. I mean, and seeing all of the amazing and also regular things that that they're able to do and to really take away the bias. I think because for so I mean, you know, when I go back and I think about kind of pre ADA, I mean, a lot of folks, more so with intellectual disability. But, you know, they were institutionalized. Yes. They were not even in society at all. And then I just saw a post the other day about a mom who takes her daughter out for coffee and her daughter has a feeding tube. And she it was a, you know, a selfie of the mom and the daughter. And the mom's like holding up the the like the latte into the this not the syringe, but the the. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's like I'm taking my daughter out for coffee. I'm like, yes, you should take your daughter out for coffee. Like, you know, and I feel that because, you know, when I take B out to the park, I don't get a lot of pity stares. I just get a lot of smiles. And like, you know, you got this. Look at you go. And it just it feels so good. And I have to always remind myself like this was not this way. Even I mean, when when when did you feel like that shift really started? Is it?

Sean
Well, I think it was the ADA obviously had a lot to do with me not having my health issues until I was in my 20s. So I think I was spared a lot of that. Yeah, because it's really been what's the ADA is a twenty seven, twenty eight years now. Yep. So so right right around the time where I was starting to have my issues and my progression was gradual. So I was that it's probably helped me out a lot. I came in right when that was coming in or I was starting to be affected right when that was starting to have an effect.

Karthik
I want to go back to that point of encouragement and, you know, having having people with disabilities come out more and sort of. So my my parents run a foundation for, you know, folks with special needs in India and, you know, work towards their employment. So they they bought a farm where they grow vegetables and folks dice the vegetables and sell it to grocery stores. And they open a grocery store where they employ people with disabilities and stuff like that. So one of one of the individuals that they that they helped throughout his young adult life, he had muscular dystrophy and obviously a very progressive one. But his goal in life was always to get to a point before before his his life, unfortunately, would end because of, you know, how muscular dystrophy progresses. His goal was to move his family out of the slum. So he was a painter who painted with his foot for the later part, sold enough paintings to move his family out of the slum. So I think that encouragement given to folks is probably, again, nothing against the idea. Obviously, ADA has enabled a lot of things in that sense. But I think that encouragement has a lot to do with that as well.

Sean
Yeah. And having goals and setting goals. Right. You know, everything I do, my only goal in life is that my three kids grow up with values and are not successful with once again with what kind of car they're driving, but successful as human beings. That's my only goal in life. That's it. Right. Everything else is is to help me enable that goal. I love what I do at Pitt. It's my job, but it gives me the ability to provide for my children so that I can make them more successful. It's almost like I want them to be good people and and obviously like teenagers, they don't hear that. But I hope like with me, we were all teenagers at some point. Stuff that your parents said that sounded corny or didn't ring. And then you're like, wow, they were right. You know, I'm hoping that makes it. But that's my one. And so having goals is part of that value, too, because getting to those, getting to succeeding in those goals or getting to those goals, you've proven your value.

Karthik
Right. And those are internal goals that you set for yourself. So the success is far more meaningful.

Susan
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Karthik, thank you so much for sharing that story and for reminding us about the work that your parents do. I know you told me that a long time ago. And gosh, I just like that is just so beautiful because I'm thinking about this person who knows their life is going to be truncated and who chooses to use their life to bring beauty and joy to other people and also, you know, social mobility to their family. Like, wow. You know, I know that they say that comparison is the death of joy or something like that. But, you know, thinking about those hard days that you were talking about, I think I'm going to try to to imagine that that man and and the fact that he was just determined, at least as I'm hearing it, to like just bring such beauty to the world, even when the world gave him a shit deal.

Karthik
And when I when I heard of his his passing, he passed about two and a half years ago when I heard about his passing, it affected me a lot. I felt very sad. But then after I realized that, hey, he managed to get his goal accomplished before he passed.

Sean
Yeah. He had a more valuable life than a movie star who had everything given to him. Exactly. His life was of more value.

Karthik
And that's when my perspective changed about it as well. I was like, I shouldn't feel sad about this. You know, yes, it is sad, obviously, because, you know, you miss the person. But at the same time, they've achieved something that they set out and they've lived a very meaningful life that most people don't accomplish.

Sean
And made the world better for others on the way.

Susan
Yeah. I really appreciate what you what you said is your goal as far as being a parent. You know, I'm a newer parent. My oldest is almost six. And, you know, I think when you first start to be a parent, you sort of have these general socialized goals of what like your kids are supposed to do. You know, what does it mean to be successful? And B really taught me that I had to reevaluate what that looked like. And I realized that what I really wanted for my children wasn't some achievement of some kind or even a particular type of partnership that they had in the future or children of their own. It was I want my children to be happy and to feel like they have purpose. And I think that you nailed it, you know, when you said I want my children to have good values. Because I think that it's so easy to get caught up in all of the other stuff. And it's like, you know, you can do everything right and your kids can have all of the opportunities and they can succumb to drug addiction or, you know, they can end up in a violent, you know, partnership like you just don't know. You never know. And I think most parents kind of operate under this assumption that like everything will be fine, like their kids are just going to be totally fine forever. And it's an assumption we need to have, I think, in order to stay sane. But when that assumption sort of gets taken away, you realize you have to like boil it down to like what is really important to me. And I just love that you were able to do that without having to like, you know, without having the similar experience that I did. I think I'm really grateful for your children that you have that perspective, because I think it's I don't know that it's super common among parents necessarily. I don't know.

Sean
I'll say and this is going to sound silly, but I truly believe this, that as much as having a disability, all the crap that comes with it. There is a benefit and the benefit is it focuses you on what's truly important. Yes. And, you know, one of my kids friends came over the other day and said, well, I want what are you going to do when you graduate? Because I have two kids. I have twins graduating this year. And they said, well, whatever I can do to make more money. I said, do you realize if you set your goals money, you're never going to have enough and you're always going to be chasing it. And it's not just money. Say you want to be, you know, a bodybuilder or whatever. If you become obsessed with that one thing rather than what's truly important, you're always going to be chasing it and it's never going to be enough. And having a disability kind of makes you understand that it's not about how much money you have. It's not about how fast he can run, obviously. It's about what's really important.

Karthik
Yeah. So that's that's really interesting and fascinating to me. So how would you say that your health issues and what you've been through from a person personality standpoint, looking at other people and, you know, encountering other people, how would you say that it's changed your perspective?

Sean
So in a general way. Dealing with this disability has made me who I am in a lot of ways, I can't imagine the other way. So it's like I'd like to say I hate I hate having a disability, which I do, but it's who I am. So it's part of me. So if I say I hate my disability, do I say I hate a part of myself because it's actually become part of me and how I look at the world from a world view? So it's changed me in the sense that I probably have more empathy than I did because I can understand issue. It's not it's not so much sympathy, but it's more empathy before. And I think empathy may have a little bit more value because you're going through it. The one thing I tell my dental students is the difference between the golden rule and the platinum rule. And they all look at they don't know what the platinum rule is. So I said, look it up. But for those of you listening, the platinum rule is to treat others as they would like to be treated rather than the golden rule, which is treat others as you would like to be treated. So I think I love that platinum rule. I pounded in my students heads. And I think that's part of the reason, because I think we have a tendency to not see ourselves in other people's position where the disabilities kind of focus me in. OK, that person's, you know, they're they just cut me off. But maybe maybe they're driving. They have to get to the hospital for somebody. Yeah, there's that speech on if you ever had the life is water. Life is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or have you ever heard of it?

Susan
No, please share.

Karthik
David Foster Wallace. Yeah, yeah.

Sean
It's it's probably the greatest commencement speech of all time. You can buy a book. You can look it up online and read it. OK, but it starts out where there's an old fish and correct me if I'm wrong, if I mess this up. But there's an old fish swimming around and two younger fish swim or swim up to him. He goes, how's the water today, boys? And he swims away and the two younger fish go, what's water? So the the the take note and then he goes on to his speech is that we don't we're so focused on ourselves. We're oblivious to everything that's going on around us and everything that with with everybody's lives. But I read that every year because it just brings me back. It's wonderful, isn't it?

Karthik
It is beautiful. Yeah, yeah, beautiful. Yeah, it's a very powerful speech to help you to think outside of your default setting in terms of, you know, give people the opportunity to get a different perspective. Not only for them, but also for yourself and your own sanity.

Sean
Yeah. And he talks a lot about the chasing money and things like that in it, too. So I read it every August right before the school year because it's a short read. You can write probably 40 pages.

Karthik
So I think I'm going to start doing that. Yeah.

Susan
Yeah. Re-ground you before the chaos.

Sean
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man. No, that is I appreciate that. Thank you so much for sharing that. I. I am wondering. You're thinking about kind of how we we reframe our perspective, how how we have empathy and then also kind of holding two things to be true is another skill, I think, that you you talked about in that. You hate having a disability and you don't hate having a disability because that is you. I think that that's a skill that everybody can learn from in some way, because I think we all have things about ourselves that we don't love, but that make us who we are. Yeah. And so I think, you know, being able to have kind of two simultaneous truths that seem mutually exclusive, I think, is so, so powerful. And, you know, something that that I grappled with, you know, certainly with myself and of course with with B, because, you know, as a parent, you don't want a child to have medical problems. Yeah. And at the same time, it's it's literally baked into his DNA. Like he would not be himself without without it. And he is the most amazing, funny, you know, hilarious, stubborn little guy. So it's really refreshing to to be reminded of that. And I think that it's something that is maybe a little more obvious for for folks with disability. But I think it's something we can all learn from and think about, you know, that that thing that you might not love is also a thing that really makes you who you are and embrace it, you know, acknowledge that it's hard and also embrace it.

Sean
Yeah. A lot of times we're not just we just don't need acceptance from the outside world. We need acceptance within. Yeah. And I'll be the first to admit I grappled with that every day. It's a tipping point, you know, between what you hate about yourself and what you what it makes of you. There's definitely definitely a truth to that.

Susan
I'm wondering. We already talked about your button. We figured that out in the first five minutes. Is there anything else that that we're missing here that you think is really kind of critical? I mean, thinking about those things that we wish other people would know about us, but we can't explain like 50 times a day, every day, if people could just know. Is there anything that we're missing?

Sean
I think I think this goes with people who have disabilities, but it should go for all of us that sometimes if you're going down the street or a hallway, just say hello or smile to someone, you know, and you're kind of in that second accepting. I don't see it as much, but I used to have people that would like kind of pretend they didn't see me or, you know, you're invisible or turn their head. And that little thing would be enough to ruin your day sometimes. So just something if you see somebody smile and say hello, whether they have disability or not, you know, just treat it, treat everybody as we're all on this trip together.

Susan
Yeah, I love that. You know, I just want to share kind of one last thing. So I was on the elevator this morning coming up and there was a gentleman who, you know, asked me what floor I was getting on. And I was looking at him. He had his headphones in and he had like awesome shoes. I mean, they were like these tennis shoes that were embroidered and all these bright colors. And I was like, these are awesome. And I like asked myself in my head, like a couple of times, like, do I say something? Should I not say something? He's listening to something. Am I going to interrupt him? Like it was like. And finally, I was like, you know, I was like, I just got to tell you, you've got great shoes and you could just see you like felt the like the air in the elevator change. And he was like, I love your dress. I was like, thanks. I go into a conference. I don't usually dress this way, but like I got to impress a bunch of lawyers. And he was like, you're going to nail it. And I was like, thank you. And like it changed my whole day. Yeah.

Sean
Yeah. Just because you believed you should. You believed in him and he believed in you at this point. That was just like a mini version what we were talking about before, where it's kind of supercharged.

Susan
Yes. Yeah. Yes. Over shoes.

Karthik
And we often also talk ourselves out of doing something that we want to do. Right. Like you were thinking about whether or not you should say something. And a lot of times we sort of are our own barrier. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sean
And I think that barrier is probably a little bit thicker with people when people are dealing with people with disabilities. Yeah. And it just breaking that barrier can make somebody's day.

Susan
Yeah. I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that. That is an easy thing we can all do. And Sean, thank you so much for being on this podcast. We really appreciate it.

Sean
I appreciate you inviting me. This was a lot of fun.

Music
♪ I still have stories to tell ♪ ♪ I feel ♪ ♪ I still have stories to tell ♪