Susan
So Jule, welcome to Who We Are Inside, a Cupid podcast. I'm so excited to be talking to you today. So today we have Jule Arney, pronouns ze, ze, or they, them, who is the director of training and research for Hulane. Jule has been serving LGBTQ plus community members in Western PA for 15 years. Ze graduated from Carnegie Mellon University with a BA in psychology. We won't hold that against you. With studies focused in prejudice, discrimination, and public policy, Jule's passion is leveraging research and data to improve LGBTQ plus community health outcomes. Jule has developed and facilitated LGBTQIA plus trainings and workshops for government agencies, corporations, social service agencies, parents and caregivers, nonprofits, educators, and schools, and served as vice chair for the city of Pittsburgh's LGBTQIA plus advisory council from 2017 to 2018. Sorry, 2019. So thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me. So on this podcast, we ask guests to tell us kind of their one thing that they want to talk about. And I experienced your one thing as like four things that are all important. And I, I'm thinking that what I'd like to start with, if it's okay with you, is finding joy in radical self love, because I feel like that's going to take us through the journey of the other things you mentioned. Specifically, you know, navigating the world as a black genderqueer person without language to describe your experience, and having people ignore or refute your identity. So I'm imagining the practice of radical self love enabled you to kind of recognize and unpack these other things. So I figured we'd start there. How how do you define radical self love?

Jule
It is having the courage to trust yourself. It is while understanding the context of your world, because that's extremely important, right? We don't exist in a vacuum. We exist within a context of society within the context of our work, our friends, our family. So all of those things are important. All of those things play a role. But ultimately, the radical ness of it all is to prioritize the things that you know to be true about yourself, prioritize that self love, which can be hard to do, right? I think it's, it's important for us to demonstrate and otherwise, you know, pour ourselves into other people and show love for other people. But we're unable to do that if we don't love ourselves first.

Susan
That's right. That's right. So I'm curious, have you read the book by Sonia Renee Taylor that I in my research, I'm believing is sort of the the first place where this term radical self love as compared to radical self acceptance was was was created. The book is called Your Body is Not an Apology from 2018.

Jule
I have not read that book, but I've heard wonderful things about it. Yeah, yeah.

Susan
I want to kind of share her definition of radical self love and kind of see what your thoughts are. So she writes that radical self love is an internal journey that impacts our external reality. Radical self love involves accepting yourself, caring for yourself and knowing you are more than enough, and inherently worthy of love, respect and compassion. Loving yourself is a radical act in a society that constantly tells us we aren't good enough. And so on. We have built an entire system that then externalizes our value.

Jule
Yeah, absolutely. I think that very much hits the nail on the head. Because our society does really set that value externally, it can be really hard for us to turn that focus back in. Yeah. So how did you start on your journey to radical self love?

Jule
I guess it really probably started in middle school, as I really was coming to terms with my sexuality, knowing that I was attracted to boys, I always knew, you know, from an early age, like, you know, when you're really young, you have like crushes, like I think back to in third grade. Now, I didn't understand that I had a crush at the time. But my third grade teacher, we had gotten back from Christmas break, and he was like, I have really exciting news. We're like, Oh, what is it? And he was like, Oh, well, over Christmas break, I proposed to my girlfriend. And she said yes. And I immediately was like, I hate her. And I didn't know why. You know, my mom came to pick me up. And his fiancé at the time, volunteered at the school. And you know, she said goodbye to me, and I just kind of snubbed her. And my mom was like, uh, is there something? Did she do something or say something? I was like, No, I just don't like her. Okay. So in retrospect, I very much understand what was going on there. I definitely had a crush on my third grade teacher. But growing up in the church, Christian church, my parents weren't really specific about a denomination, we went to many different Protestant churches. And we went to church a lot. And there was a lot of rhetoric about, you know, folks, more specifically men having sex with men, meaning you're going to hell. And so I can remember in fifth and sixth grade, literally crying myself to sleep praying to God to please, please, just make me like girls. Like if I can just like girls, then everything will be okay. Right? I will meet this expectation. I will make my parents proud. I will make my community proud. And it wasn't until eighth grade, I graduated. And I was in Student Venture. Student Venture is similar to Fellowship for Christian Athletes. It's just a Christian group. And they did this graduation getaway. So it was for anyone who was rising into high school. And so we went to Myrtle Beach, and it's like a week of being there. And there's like praise and worship and all these things. And they were doing an altar call. And I had been struggling with these feelings the whole time. And yet again, here I am. I go up to the altar. I'm on my knees. I'm sobbing. Everyone is like, whoa, because I was known to be the really joyful person, very outgoing. So many people are coming up and like, Oh, my God, how can I pray for you? How can I help you? And I'm like, just pray, just pray, just pray. And while I was sitting there, just again, being like, please make me like girls. Everything just seemed to go quiet. And it's as if I heard something, or maybe I just felt it say, there's nothing to fix. And you know, the journey from there is not linear, let's be clear. But that was an important first step for me to feel that internally to know that maybe there isn't anything wrong. Maybe there isn't something that needs to be fixed.

Susan
Thank you so much for sharing that. And I love that it came from the inside first. Like, I feel like so often I hear stories about folks who, you know, I didn't realize until someone else told me. And for you to be in a moment that was, from what I'm gathering, like, really stressful, because you felt like you weren't meeting an expectation, and to have that whatever you we want to call it, experience, but something that was inside. That just that is that is an act of radical self love right there. So where'd you go from there?

Jule
So a few weeks after that graduation getaway, we moved to Georgia, which was a shock to my system having grown up in the Midwest before that. And I started to come out to folks like I tried to come out to my parents that did not go well. My dad literally grabbed the Bible and said, It's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. So in a panic, I was like, Oh, maybe I'm just bi. And my mom's like, Well, you know, you could choose to be straight. So I just recloseted myself with my parents. But with friends in high school, I was out. I was bi for my freshman year. But by the end of freshman year, I was like, Yeah, no, I'm gay. I just like guys. And, you know, went through high school. And it was, I believe, yeah, the summer between my sophomore and junior year. I, you know, throughout all this process, I really struggled heavily with depression and suicidal ideation. And it got to a point that I was like, Okay, I need some help for real. So me being the neurodivergent person I am, I did my own research to make sure that I found a therapist that was within walking distance, because I couldn't drive, was on my parents plan, and that I would be able to afford on I think they were giving me like maybe 10, 15, maybe $20 a week, that I would be able to afford the copay myself. So then that they wouldn't be able to say anything. And that's exactly how it went down. I approached him. I was like, So I need to see a therapist. And they're like, Well, how are you going to get there? Like, we're both working. Oh, I can ride my bike up there. It's literally up the street. Well, how do you know if it's in the plan? I know, right? Did all the things. And that summer, I had them come in for a session. And I came out to them again. Mom immediately burst into tears. Dad starts yelling at the therapist saying, What are you telling them? All of these things. But, you know, I did that strategically, because the next day I was going away for band camp for a whole week. So I didn't have to be there. So that they could just sort out their own feelings. And when I got back, they were like, Oh, we're so glad you told us this. Because now we can help you. I was like, Oh, I think you misheard me. I didn't say I think I'm gay. I said I am. And you know, that went on. But I knew that I need to stand firm in who I was. And I actually ended up taking my boyfriend to prom my senior year, which was a whole to do. My mom and I were fighting quite a bit. And it wasn't until two nights before prom, when two sets of parents in that prom group called me to disinvite me from the prom group. The prom group was all my band friends. There were a few of us who were bringing dates from other schools. My boyfriend at the time was in band at a neighboring school. But yeah, they kicked me out of the group. I was very distraught, obviously. And I didn't know who else to talk to. I would usually talk to my mom about it. So I told her. And she got really quiet. And I got really scared. I was like, Oh, my God, she's gonna take their side. Because they were really upset when I told them I was taking my boyfriend. They're like, well, you're not supposed to have one. And you just want everyone to know. I'm like, everyone does know. But she, you know, that moment helped her recognize that she needed to protect her child. And she said that very directly. She's like, you know, I, I've known since you were three. But that she knows how hard it is to be a black person in America. And she didn't want one extra thing, that any parent worth something would want an easier life for their child, and that she just didn't want her child's life to be harder. And so I fully got that. And, you know, people would ask me like, how I was so brave, but to me, it wasn't being brave. I was just, one, choosing to live. And two, applying a lot of the things that I had to, because I was black in a majority white situation. There were folks that would call me the N word and F word in the hallway. And nothing was done about it. But I knew that there was nothing to be ashamed of, of being black, that these assumptions that even teachers would sometimes make about me, were completely invalid. And that started in the home. My parents really made sure that my sister and I, despite living in a majority white area, had connections to black culture, understood why we should be proud of who we are, and also understand that there are going to be people who react in that way, not that we should assume that people would react that way, but that they might, but that doesn't have to deter who we know ourselves to be. So I took that exact thing and applied it to me being queer. And it just felt natural. I was like, why would I, I wouldn't not say something, or not defend myself, if you were attacking me for being black. So why wouldn't I do the same thing for me being queer?

Susan
I have so many things going on in my head right now. And, you know, it's interesting. So Sonia Renee Taylor is a black woman. And it never I, in, in all of my kind of reading, I never put that together. That like this act of rattle, radical self love, I think, comes from the black and specifically African American community in that, that, that, like affirmation of value of worthiness, of, you know, someone who deserves to be cherished. And, and that that comes from that, like, that just blew my mind. And that makes so much sense. Do you think or how, how were your parents able to sort of recognize the parallel structure and, and, and navigate that? I'm curious.

Jule
Yeah, I, I think, you know, to be honest, my, my mom, she grew up in Detroit, she's from Detroit. And her exact response to learning that these parents had disinvited me from the prom group was, I want names and addresses under which no circumstances was I going to give to her. She's like, what? No, no. You know, it just clicked immediately that they needed to love and protect their child. And once that happened, everything else really just fell into place. It was, you know, my parents have always been very loving, I've very blessed to, you know, very privileged to come from a loving two parent household. Who really, you know, money or no money, and there were both always showered me and my sister with love. And so there was a definitely a return to that. And when I got to college, my mom sent me three boxes of condoms because she figured I would need more because, you know, I was like, okay, well, um, but, you know, I get it. That is her being mom, she is trying to protect me, she's trying to look out for me, and definitely became a champion for me, among the family, the extended family, as folks began to find out slash I just told them. Because as you can imagine, you know, the responses varied. I would say one of the easiest actually was my dad's father, who was a Baptist deacon at the time. And he fully when was told he was just like, okay, that's still my grandchild. And that, you know, this rhetoric that is taught in the church is like, I just don't understand why someone would choose to make their life harder. So that doesn't make any sense to me. And I've known you your entire life, and you have not changed. Right? So it's not a problem for me to just love you as you are.

Susan
Yes. I am, we interviewed somebody for one of our Cupid courses, who is non binary. And, you know, they said, they were like, you know, I just want to tell my mom, like, Mom, you still have your daughter, I'm still here, I might not identify as a daughter anymore. But like, it's still me. And I just, I'm so glad that your family, was able to see that. I imagine that probably made things easier to navigate knowing that you had that strong base of folks who supported you and loved you and cherished you exactly as you are.

Jule
Yeah, you know, once I got to college, I thought that by coming out as gay, coming out as queer, that it would resolve a lot of that depression and things and it didn't. And that was because I hadn't dealt with my gender. And I hadn't realized that because I didn't know there were other options slash that there were other frameworks. Of thinking about what gender is like, some of my earliest, earliest memories are me being reprimanded by either my parents and aunt or uncle, because I was very often asked if I was a boy or girl. And I just be like, I just shrug. You need to tell people you're a boy. And I just remember thinking to myself, but I don't feel like a boy. But I also know I'm not a girl. And I guess if those are the only two options, and everyone just keeps telling me I'm a boy, you're a boy, you're a boy, you're a boy, I guess I'll go with it. But funnily enough, other children do see one another. And in first grade, one of my close friends, because especially in kindergarten, first grade, second grade, there's a lot of sex segregation, and like playtime and other activities, which I always hated. But one of those things was about to happen. And she turned to me and she said, you know, I don't, I don't really think of you as a boy or a girl. You're like something else. And I was like, Oh, thank God, someone else. I thought I was crazy. She's like, Yeah, no, like, you're, you're you. Can I give you a nickname? And I was like, I mean, yes. And she said, I want to call you Jule, because you shine so brightly. And, you know, I got a little misty, a little misty. I was so excited about it. And when my mom picked me up from school, I of course, excitedly told her this story. And she was like, well, you can't go by that. That's too feminine. Right. There's this constant reminder that you can't do that. You can't do that. You can't do that. And so it wasn't until college that I was still trying to shoehorn myself into being a boy. I joined a fraternity. I love my fraternity brothers. And it was actually at the fraternity house that I learned the term genderqueer. One of my fraternity brothers, we were actually playing a game of kings. I'm sure many folks listening are familiar.

Susan
So am I.

Jule
Five is guys, six is chicks. Right. So one of those cards was pulled. And this brother said, Oh, well, I'm genderqueer, but I'll just drink for both. And I was like, Wait a minute, hold up. What's that? And he explained what genderqueer meant to him. And I was like, Oh, my God, that's me. We have words for that. That's a thing. But even though I recognize that my brothers were like, OK, cool. I actually, again, recloseted myself, especially after graduating. Because, I mean, gay marriage wasn't even legal yet. So I, even though I did a lot of things with the what would be the equivalent of the Gay Straight Alliance on Carnegie Mellon's campus, I had to kind of rewrite the titles and things and staff there were like, Yeah, just tell me the title that you want to use. So we're not outing you in the interview process. So I like kind of fully forgot that I had come out and it wasn't until I was 30. Yes, I was 30 that I was working at a tech company here in Pittsburgh. And I was serving on the Pride ERG. And I met all of these non-binary, genderqueer, genderfluid and other folks that were in trans folks in general that were out at work and very successful. Right. And I was like, Oh, wow. So I can be who I know myself to be and still like have success, be able to have gainful employment. Right. We all have bills to pay. The Carnegie Mellon tuition bill will not pay itself. Thank you, Sally Mae. So it was then that I was like, OK, no, I'm coming out as genderqueer. And I will say my parents definitely made up for how terribly they took me coming out as gay when I told them that I was genderqueer. They're like, oh, well, we're not fully certain what that means, but we love you and we can tell you're a lot happier. Like you just seem more comfortable in yourself. And I was like, I am. Right. I'm instead of forcing myself to play this role of boy, play this role of man and being very miserable doing it. I chose to be who I knew myself to be. And, you know, my mom used to always say because my mom prides herself on being pretty fashionable. And she would say, you always dress like a bum. Well, isn't that how men dress? Also, I didn't care about my appearance because all the things that I wanted to do, I wasn't allowed to do. Right. And so once I gave myself that freedom, even it was literally within a year of me, like making that announcement, coming out to my friends, starting to wear more feminine clothing, experimenting with makeup and heels and all of these things. And people would just come up to me and go, wow, your your fashion is so incredible. And I'm like, wow, I guess it was always there. It's just I never, I never had that opportunity to show it because I was forcing myself into what I thought people wanted or expected. And many people do want or expect. But that's not a life worth living. Right. Every. Every time that I beat myself up for simply being who I am, every time I talked myself down because. I didn't believe that I had inherent worth. Right. Those are some of the prices of not living your truth. Right. Not choosing to know yourself and love yourself and move forward in that. And there's. You know, they they there's the diagnosis of gender dysphoria, and some folks in the trans community will talk about gender euphoria. And that's very much what it is for me. I get to. Really think about the way that I want to show up and present in the world. And do that. And there's a lot of freedom and being able to do that. And I, I understand that I'm very privileged to be able to do that. And have gainful employment and have a really wonderful support network and a partner and all of these other things that I thought that because I was queer, because I was genderqueer, that I couldn't have those. Right. Because those are the stories we see. But. I chose myself, and then it almost seemed like the world around me slowly started to recognize that that doesn't mean that everyone does. And the way that we perceive the world is kind of important, right? I think to me, what's most important is. My closest circle, they're my world. And if they can see me and know me. That can be enough.

Susan
Can you help me really feel what it's like to try to put yourself in a box for which, you know, you don't belong. Like, what is that like day to day? What is that experience like? I want to if it's not too much to ask, I want to feel it with you.

Jule
Hmm. It's like you're walking through life like a ghost. You're not you're not actually there. You kind of experience things outside of yourself in a way. Because, I mean, in some ways, I was a fabulous performer. I mean, everyone clocked me, but but like a lot of times people didn't know that I was battling severe depression for years, that I had multiple suicide attempts. And that becomes very overwhelming. Right. You play this role for so long and sometimes you delude yourself into believing that it's real. Hmm. Only for it to all come crashing down. Right. And I can't often even say what a trigger may have been. Honestly, it's just the straw that breaks the camel's back. Right. And it all comes crashing down. And that's what I mean when I say I don't look at it as me being brave. Right. I chose to live because the alternative was definitely for me to die.

Susan
Thank you for sharing that with me and with our listeners. You know, I think about folks who have neurodiversity and masking and the the weight that that carries and the energy that it takes to sort of get through the day. I feel like what you're talking about is is a parallel, but also in an identity that is at least, you know. Earlier, I don't know what I don't want to like out your age, you know, time wise was was not even acknowledged as being real. Yeah. Is that does that resonate for you?

Jule
Yes. I late diagnosed ADHD as well. It really made a lot of things make a lot more sense because my sister was diagnosed when we were young. And the way her ADHD manifests is different than the way mine does. In fact, it's you know, they tend to say that that assigned male at birth folks who have ADHD may be that more physically hyperactive, whereas those assigned female at birth might be more internally, like mentally, emotionally more hyperactive. My sister and I are the opposite. So it was, you know, quote unquote, more obvious for her. But even looking back at my my citizenship scores in kindergarten, first grade and second grade, I was doing great. Right. Straight A's, maybe a B here or there. Citizenship. It's going to be a two. And here's why. So Julian's fantastic, but finishes work quickly and then starts bothering all the other students. Can't sit still, like very talkative, but also like very compliant. Right. If you tell me to sit down, I'm like, OK, I'm probably going to get back up again a little bit later. But right there. So people just kind of assumed and not incorrectly that it was more related to maybe I'm not being challenged enough for this, that and the third. But also I did very intentionally take on this persona of I will be perfect because in my mind, in the lead up to coming out to my parents as gay, I was like, OK, well, if I'm perfect in every other way, maybe then they'll still love me. And that was like my goal. So hashtag overachiever. Right. I was in seven clubs. I was president of five of them. I was in the marching band. I was in the musical two years. I did jazz band and concert bands. I founded and was president of my church's youth group. National Honor Society, National Plan of Honor Society, like did all of the things. And. You know, that was also a way of masking because I didn't realize that by keeping myself so busy, that's the reason why I was on top of everything all the time. Without that, like constant shifting and needing to do the next thing. That's where it really fell apart for me in college. And I was still pretty involved in college, but. It was a lot less stable because I didn't have, you know, my parents there to help instill some of those things that were more or less habits at that time when I was, you know, in high school. You know, you get to college, you're like, I'm free. And that like kind of fully disregulated my ability to mask in that way. And I really felt like I was somehow broken. And, you know, it wasn't until much later that I was like, actually, hold on to find out that, oh, this whole time, that's why these things were happening. Like, I remember in high school, I was sick and I didn't want to skip school because I had a math test that day. And so my mom would usually go pick up the medication, and she knows that I can't take the non-drowsy medicine because it makes me sleepy. Which I didn't know that was a thing that was associated with ADHD. She obviously didn't either. But that day, my dad went and got it and he got the non-drowsy because he thought he was doing the right thing. And I literally yelled at him. I was like, why would you give me this? But it was all we had. And so I took it and I literally almost fell asleep during the test. So there's like all these things that I can like come back to and go, oh, oh. So similarly, it's true for being genderqueer. Like I can look back and go, oh, wow. These were those moments where I learned to hide aspects of myself or simply deny aspects of myself and replace them with the thing that I thought people wanted or expected.

Susan
So when you were working at a tech company and you had colleagues who were genderqueer, non-binary, genderfluid, and you were like, OK, I can do this. This is like I don't have to choose between gainful employment and my true identity. What was your process for kind of unpacking all of those little nuggets over the years?

Jule
Yeah, I actually when I started that job, I met someone who had transitioned right before I started. And I never knew that person as not who they are today, the name that they use today. So even getting that news, I was like, oh, OK. But we actually ended up becoming best friends. She's still one of my best friends to this day. And because of her experience, because she came out at work, right? And she was like, so that wasn't a pleasant experience. So literally wrote the company's gender transition guidelines. And it just so happened that she became my manager. And so that was extremely helpful. And knowing that, one, it's someone who's already been through this. And two, that she was absolutely going to advocate for me in every possible way. So, again, hashtag privilege, because, you know, I don't know that I would have. I don't know that I would have been able to have the confidence to stand up for myself in the ways that she did. I felt like I wasn't trans enough. Right. And she was like, that's nonsense. There's no such thing. And, you know, I would, even though it did bother me, I wouldn't really correct people when they misgendered me. And she was like, Jule, if someone used he him pronouns for me, would you not correct them? Like, absolutely. She's like, so you should do the same for yourself. Like, yes, it's not the more commonly used pronoun for a singular individual, but it's not that hard. Number one and number two, it's about self-respect, like. It's not a big ask for people to try. And there were some people who simply weren't trying. And that's very different. Right. I'm fully happy to give people space and time to be able to learn something new. It was a part of the email I sent out was, OK, so you've known me for two years now under this name and he him pronouns. So I fully understand that it's going to probably take you a while to make a shift. Right. I simply ask that you try. And that if I or someone else corrects you, that you don't take it as an attack. Right. Because that's not what it is. It's actually investing in you. Right. When we. Because when I have random interactions with people in the street and this is I'm talking about me myself and I am not speaking for trans folks or non-binary folks at large, but for my own piece, I've learned to. By and large, if someone who is a complete stranger to me that I will most likely never see again, misgenders me, I'm not going to waste my breath, I'm just going to go about my day. Right. I correct people that I know that I'm going to be spending more time with, and especially people that I care about, because I want them to know me and recognize me as I am. So. Some of that unpacking of what that meant for me was a lot of that unpacking of what that meant for me was through her and some of my other friends who are trans, et cetera, as well as seeing folks like Billy Porter or MJ Rodriguez or Angelica Ross or Laverne Cox, like all of these. And it was so important to me that they were black and queer and trans, because I do remember in high school shows like Queer as Folk or Will and Grace, right, which were great. I was like, oh, my God. Right. There's like positive representation of gay people, but they're all white gay men. Right. And I'm not sure that applies to me because the world does treat us differently, even though it shouldn't, that that is what happens. And we have to acknowledge that. So to see black, queer and trans people living their life proudly and not only that being such a success, right. Billy Porter, devastating red carpets left and right. I was like, oh, I can do that. I think, you know, there is we mentioned before how there is a lot of weight put on some external validation. It's not that there shouldn't be any weight, right, because it is very valuable. It was that's a part of the reason why language exists. It is. Us trying to communicate something that is internally happening. Right. Otherwise we don't really need language. Right. We could just live in our own little world. So having language, seeing people that I can relate to on multiple levels helps me be able to know that I can do it and aspire to do more.

Susan
I want to repeat something you said, because I think it's so critical, particularly for folks who are maybe still trying to learn and unlearn things and are working towards, you know, learning how to use non-binary pronouns and things that when you are corrected, it is an investment in you. And it's because somebody cares about you. Like that is so powerful. And I don't know that I've ever had somebody explain it that way. It's like an act of love. Because at least for you and your experience, you're not going to waste your time. If it's not somebody that means something to you in some way. Um, I think that's really powerful. And I think that, you know, so often when we're corrected, no matter what it's about, people just get really defensive, like right away. And I think it's, it's important to remember that particularly in this moment that, you know, that requires a, a mental and emotional lift from you that is not as light as you would think it would be. And that that is you demonstrating your love as a loose term for that, for that person. Um, I just, I, I wanted to reiterate that cause I thought that was so beautiful. Um, so I was in my research of radical self love. I was listening to this podcast, um, Brene Brown unlocking us and she was interviewing Sonia Renee Taylor and they were talking about, um, the human body as a measure of like social hierarchy. And, um, they said, I think Sonia Renee Taylor said to climb up the ladder of bodily hierarchy. What radical self love invites us to do is to divest from the ladder, to recognize that the ladder is only real because we keep trying to climb it all of us collectively. And when I hear you say I was able to be my true self and have gainful employment, I, to me, that's like you divesting from the ladder. It's like, I don't have to choose to be a particular gender in order to do the things that I want to do and be successful in the way that I define success.

Jule
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, even, so when I graduated high school, I had an internship at an architecture firm and it was my aunt's former firm. I assumed I got the role because my aunt used to work there. Apparently I gave the best interview, so that's fine. Um, but, uh, because it was in a different state, they never saw me. So they only interviewed me over the phone, right? So, I mean, they knew I was black, my aunt's black, come on. Um, but they didn't know that I had dreadlocks and they called her and they were like, why wouldn't you have told them to cut those off? That's so unprofessional. And so she calls my mom and my mom promptly cussed her out. Um, because she was like, why would I tell my child to not be proud of their hair, to be proud of their heritage and how on earth is their hair impeding their ability to do work? Um, and the same is true about gender, gender presentation. Like even thinking back to my earlier jobs, right? They were like, Oh, you can't have visible tattoos or have colored hair. And I was like, I'm working at a call center. I don't, I literally do not know how that has any impact. But furthermore, why would it or should it, right? People are making whatever assumptions they are making instead of just allowing people to make the choices that are right for them. Because I firmly believe that we as individuals have the right to determine what we do with our body. Right. Um, I think that's kind of fundamental. It's yours. Right. Um, and these very needless restrictions are just ways, as you were saying, of constructing this ladder. Um, but it very much is that when you go, well, I'm choosing me. Um, and honestly it doesn't really fully matter what others outside of that think. Right. Like I was saying before, like my inner circle of folks, right. Um, my chosen family, them knowing me and loving me. It's enough.

Susan
Yeah. You know, I'm thinking about the ladder and visible tattoos of which, um, I have a few and, uh, it's interesting policy at one of the local hospital systems, you know, used to be that you couldn't have visible tattoos and you couldn't have hair that was an unnatural color, which I would love to know what that means. Cause I definitely had some, some red, but like I had some red hues that were not natural. They were like maroon, but okay. So like, where's that spectrum anyway? So they changed that policy first at the children's hospital because, and this goes back to your friend who coined your nickname, um, because the children just saw them as beautiful and interesting and they would ask questions about them and it actually like improved their morale as patients. I think the same is also true of colors, right? Like we're human. We love, we love color. And, um, and it was through the, um, sort of not buying into that ladder, the children kind of just refusing to recognize that somehow if you have visible tattoos or a non natural colored hair, you are somehow less than the whole system dissolved. And that policy went away. Yeah. Um, and I think about that in a lot of other ways, like how can we just say, no, I'm not buying into that. You know, that's bullshit. It's hard to do unless you have the power and privilege to do so.

Jule
Right. You know, I, there was a summer I had applied, uh, for work at a car wash and the guy I interviewed with was very excited. He was like, I want you to start tomorrow. There's just one hitch. Um, you know, you, you, I was identifying as a boy at the time. Uh, he was like, so male workers aren't allowed to have hair longer than their shoulders. And I just remember thinking to myself, so you're asking me to cut my dreadlocks that I have had for 15 years, um, for minimum wage. I'm confused. Right. But also like if I didn't have another option because I had been out of work for a while and I was getting a little nervous, right. I might have to do that. Yeah. Right. It's only because I have been privileged and yes, obviously I also worked hard as well, but I want to fully acknowledge that there are many ways that I have, uh, have privileges that many other people that maybe share a lot of my background haven't had. Um, and so I've been able to take advantage of that and also where I can push for that for other people as well. Right. Cause it's not, there's nothing wrong inherently about having privilege. None of us asks to have privilege. It's just given. Right. Um, and a lot of times you may not even be aware, um, that you have certain privileges, but when we do know then we can do something to make sure that what is currently a privilege becomes a standard. And that's exactly what happened at the children's hospital. Right. You're like, Oh, actually maybe we should just get rid of this. And so all of a sudden now you're not losing out on maybe a really fantastic nurse or doctor or whatever, because of a policy that literally doesn't have any bearing on their ability to do their job. Absolutely none.

Susan
That's right. And I appreciate you acknowledging privilege because I think, you know, I identify as a white cis-het woman. Um, I have a lot of privilege and I think the more we talk about our privilege, the more we normalize privilege as not something to be ashamed of, but something to say, I have this and this is what I'm doing with it to make the world a better place. Um, I think the better off we all are. I feel like people want to like pretend that they don't have it. Right. And I'm actually really, I'm guilty of that in one way, which is I grew up in Fox chapel. If you're from the Pittsburgh area. And most people, when they hear I grew up in Fox chapel, it's like an eye roll and like an instant, just like, Oh, I know who you are. Um, to the point where I would actually then tell people, once I realized this was a thing, I would tell people that I lived in O'Hara, which is like right next to Fox chapel, just so that I wouldn't get judged. Um, but you know, I was very aware of that privilege at a very early age, even when, you know, I was surrounded by mostly, you know, cis white people, because my best friends did not have that privilege. You know, they grew up in Blonox and Aspinwall. Um, and so I realized like, okay, I have this, what am I going to do with it? I don't need to be ashamed of it. I didn't, you know, I couldn't take it away and I shouldn't squander it. And I think that's where I found peace with my privilege. And it sounds like you have to.

Jule
Yeah, absolutely. I, I don't know. I've always been a very sensitive person. Another thing that I was constantly reprimanded for, especially being assigned male at birth, right? Boys don't cry, all of these things, but I've always been very, very sensitive. And so I don't know. It's always been easy for me to see and understand, um, that people's experiences are different. And I do think that part of that is because I am neurodiverse, like it's part of the reason that I had such an interest in psychology is I looked around and said, okay, so I definitely do not think and feel the same way. Most of you are thinking and feeling, which is fine. Like I don't, in some ways, yes, I felt bad about it, especially, you know, being told I was oversensitive, um, and things like that. Um, but you know, in general, I like to keep the framework of, you know, different. It's just different. It's not good or bad, right? It's just different. And if we can recognize that our experiences are not truly universal, right? Our experiences are very necessarily individual. We are all very unique people. Um, but there are lots of parts about ourselves that do become a bit more universal if we can recognize how others are different, right? It is in the one hand, recognizing that all of us are very much the same in that we are all sitting on this rock. Um, and well, it's on fire. That's fine. Um, but right, we have a shared responsibility to the planet that we live on. We have a shared responsibility to one another, in my opinion. Um, so in order to help my neighbor, I have to understand them in their truth. And I know for a fact that my truth is not going to necessarily be their truth. That's it. That's right.

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