Susan
Welcome to Who We Are Inside a Cupid podcast. I'm so glad you're here.

Adriana
Thinking back, if you had to give your younger self an advice, would you change anything? Would you?

Victoria
So. So that's always a hard question to to think about. Because if I were to if I would do that, what parts of my life would I miss? Because like, the obvious answer would be to go back to me in undergrad and just be like, you need to transition. Like, call this number, what are you doing? Go get your hormones. Um, but that means that I would have had a much different social life in, in undergrad, which could have changed even me going into pharmacy school. Like maybe I would have decided to do something else instead. And then would I have even met any of the people who were important to me? Now, would I be in this position to, you know, help? Would I even be in a position to be kind of, I hate to call myself like a role model, that feels weird to say, but as somebody that some students can look up to because, like, we've had out trans students for the first time in the pharmacy school since I came out, and the first one specifically came to my office to say that seeing me gave her the strength to be herself. And we've had, like, I call them, my work children now, because I still stay in touch with most of them and like, I would do anything for them. And, uh, would would that have happened? Like thinking about like, is it worth me going back in time and saying, go get your hormones so you can dress pretty and go to bars in undergrad. The thing that you vaguely think you want to do, but you really don't. But go, go go go have fun. Who would that have, who would that hurt? Like, now? Who would I miss out on? Or if I went all the way back to that renfaire and said, you know what, this is just going to be miserable. Why don't you go run away and just like you're going to transition like 20 years earlier, you're going to figure it out. There are a lot of drugs you're probably going to do just out on the renfaire circuit and basically joining the circus and like, what does that life look like? No idea. Um, so I have a hard time answering those kinds of questions, but I would I would like to think that I would go back and tell myself that I need to, like, actually confront what's happening and that it's only going to get worse and that, you know, this is the thing that you need to do. But there's something you know about butterfly effects and such that makes those kinds of questions hard to, uh, truly answer.

Susan
Um, when did you. When did you say it's. It's time? Like, what made you say it's time?

Victoria
Uh, leggings was the the thing. So.

Susan
Yeah, it's a whole story. It's a great.

Victoria
Okay. Yeah. I'm ready. So, uh, it's 2018. It's February 2018. Okay. Uh, I, uh, had just I think we had just done the first version of my, like, LGBTQ in healthcare class, which is like a big staple of, of what I of my curriculum stuff now, uh, which, incidentally, made me look up the resources I would eventually use because we're very we're very, um, blessed. I guess that's not the right word. We're very fortunate in Pittsburgh to have both, like the Persad center, which is a good psychiatric like, like therapy and LGBTQ like, focus and two different gender clinics, MetroHealth and Central Outreach. So I knew more about the actual resources in the city. And so it's February, it's still hot, and I'm in my office, and I'm just totally incapable of focusing on any work. And I'm like, all right, that's it. Like, it's the summer or not the summer, but like, it's like I don't have anything, like, really important to do. I'm just going to go home. And I had been focusing on because it was warm enough that people were wearing leggings. And I was, for some reason, focusing on the fact that I wasn't allowed to wear those like I had. I was being forced to dress to a certain level of professionalism to come in, usually to just sit in my office and work all day with nobody else. So it was all like my entire wardrobe at that time was like slacks and like business casual or better, which is…

Susan
Can I ask, did you wear polos?

Victoria
I hate polos. I did. Okay.

Susan
Real quick. Sorry, I'm trying to picture you in a polo.

Victoria
Oh my God. So real quick, let me tell you another little story. This might get me in trouble. Um, so back when I was in early, like, before this time, but maybe even a year before this time. I do not fundamentally appreciate or understand men's professional fashion kind of period paragraph and being forced to do this, I'm like, look, I'm not spending stupid money on clothes I hate, like, I will, I will buy cheap nonsense and you will deal with it. And the old dean asked me the one day, hey, do you what are you doing after work? And I'm like, that's a weird question, but nothing, I guess. And she says, great, I know you're going to be presenting at this conference, and I want you to look good enough to be representing our program. And I'm like, that's a real specific, uh, comment you just made there. What does this have to do with anything? And she basically kidnapped me out to a mall and dropped $1,000 of her own money on a professional wardrobe for me, which is one of the most intensely uncomfortable experiences I've ever had related to work. And at the same time, like, I wasn't going to spend that money on on that nonsense. Like, I can't look at a tie and not think about nooses. Like, I hate that kind of clothing. Like professional wear is so gendered and it is so terrible. It's just the worst. Um, and so here I am, having to wear polos and khakis and slacks and ties, seeing all these, like, young, happy, vibrant people wearing whatever. But specifically it was leggings. I don't know why it was specifically leggings. And I was like, man, I haven't been able to focus on anything for like a week. And I was like super depressed and and just just miserable. And as I was walking home, I had this realization that I had two choices. I could either use some of those resources that I actually know about or jump in front of this next 54 because it doesn't stop for anything. And so I chose the first of those options. Um, and I made an appointment at Prasad to go into because I'm especially back then, I needed somebody else to validate that this was what was going on. And so I made an appointment at Prasad and I went into my therapy, and it was very funny because I show up with, like, slacks and, uh, like a button down and a tie and like a vest. The vest was the only part that I was okay with because it had a slimmed your feature. It was like more form fitting. I was like, I don't know why this feels better to wear, but so I show up. And the first question the therapist asked me is, oh, how long have you been on testosterone? Which which is so funny. Very specifically. Um, I just like I haven't watched like, since puberty, I guess, like, uh, and so it was, it was like a month of seeing her when she goes, I guess it was like April. It was. It was like February to April. I went there every week I talk about this kind of like these feelings and my experiences and all this stuff. And it was April that she was just like, all right, look here, here's the number for Central Outreach. Go make yourself an appointment, get you what you need. Like you're absolutely get out of here. What are you doing? I stayed with that therapist for a really long time, actually, because I, you know, have a lot of other things. Everybody should have a therapist. Like period, end of sentence. Yes, yes. Um, so I went to Central Outreach, and at this point, like I already knew the path seven guidelines back and forth because I taught them and I already knew what the regimens were going like, what the options were because I taught them. And, uh, so I, I go to Central Outreach and I do the intake appointment and they're like, okay, we gotta like, take your blood. We gotta make sure you sign off on all these. And I'm like, yep, yep, yep, I know all about this. Yep yep absolutely. And they turn it in and they're like, all right now we have to wait two weeks. Right. And I'm like, why? And well we need to get the results back from the blood test. I'm like yeah, but that's like three days. Why is it going to be two weeks? Like, well it's part of the procedure. Like we need to make sure that you are sure. And I'm like, okay, it's going to be a real, real annoying two weeks. Um, because I literally called them. I'm like, can I just start? Like, what are we doing here? So the two weeks pass, I go in and it was a Friday morning that I go in and they say, okay, like, do you have any idea what you would like? And I'm like, yes, this is my regimen please. And I hand them. I'm like, it was like, I want to take this. I want to take this. And so many months I want to start this. And like, like I want to do this increase here based on these values. And they're just like, huh? And I'm like, I'm a pharmacist. I literally teach this stuff like, and they're just like, oh, we should keep your information in case we need to consult with you on things. Because they didn't have a pharmacist on staff at the time, which was a very fun. There were times where I would go to my appointment at central, like years later, that my my appointment would be like 15 minutes, but I'd be there for an hour while they'd be like, hey, we got this. Like, what do you think about this? And they'd be like pitching like cases or things to me. I'd actually go on to set up, an experiential learning experience for our students there at the behest of my my, my first work daughter. Um, and so. Yeah, so so I get my stuff, I get my patches, I get my spironolactone, I go to, I go to work because there was a, a like, oh gosh, I think it was just DI at the time because this was downstream from the Year of Diversity and inclusion at the University of Pittsburgh had. And so the School of Pharmacy decided they were going to have a diversity and inclusion committee. And I was practically I think I was the vice chair at this time. And I had done this whole thing talking about how our patient cases aren't appropriate and aren't varied enough and this whole thing and I go into the bathroom, put on my first patches, take my first final act and go in and give my talk, and then leave and go home and then slip into leggings that I had purchased, uh, and had set aside specifically for this purpose, I felt great. It was such a joyous moment. And so my plan, because I hadn't really told many people. I had told my department chair at the time, I told my my work wife, Colleen, who I met my partner in crime at work whom I love dearly and, um, very a bunch of students. There were a lot of students who knew, and they were very supportive and, and protective. Um, and so my plan, though, was to be like, all right, I know how conservative minded like pharmacy is as a space. I know how problematic many of my colleagues are. I'm going to ease them into this. I will boy mode at work for a while and then eventually, like, here we go. So I dress. I dress appropriately all weekend, you know, and these clothes, these leggings and things. And then Monday rolls around and I put on those slacks and that button down and that tie. And I look into the mirror and I can just feel this, like crushing weight coming back at me. And I said, oh, uh, fuck this. They'll just have to deal with it. Oh, I'm sorry, can I. It's okay. Okay. Uh, I'm just like, they're just going to have to, like, deal with it. They'll have to catch up. So. And because I had gotten some, like, professional wear clothes, uh, that was more feminine. And I wore that and got I have so many stories about how I was treated, uh, in that first year. Um, but part of that eventually would also become like, you know, you will note, I am not particularly dressed up because I finally convinced them that my profession is teacher. I don't go to a clinic. I don't believe in any of that nonsense that they try to push that weird, cult like professionalism. There are values of it, but like professionalism as a concept is more complicated than just that. I want to write a whole paper on how it's actually like three different definitions that are all conflated. But and so I'm like, look at the other schools I teach in. Their dress code is please cover your genitals. And up here we don't have a dress code written, but it is enforced through taboo and I'm not going to do it anymore. So deal with it. And and they didn't they didn't like fire me or anything. And so I have maintained that stance ever since.

Susan
I have so many questions. But I think the one because I also changed the dress code here. Not that there was a dress code for faculty or staff that I was aware of, but because there wasn't one, I was like, I don't want to and I know that I'm wearing sort of professional ish dress right now. Um, but these are pants with elastic from Target, and they're basically like leggings with a little houndstooth pattern disguised as professional pants. So, um, but I think that I feel like when you mentioned that moment about you put on, you know, you you wore your leggings all weekend and then you went to put on these clothes that just didn't feel like you. And the crushing weight of that and how you said no. And I know that, you know, from talking to you and knowing you that the context of that is, is that these were gendered clothes for a gender with whom you do not identify. But I think that could be true for many of us. Right. Like who? And I'm curious if this idea of, like, being yourself at work was it was you sort of like it your gender identity and and your journey kind of forced your hand in that because you couldn't just be like, well, I'm just going to be my gender, a professional, professional version of my gender identity at work. You're just like, I'm just going to do the whole. I'm doing the whole damn thing.

Victoria
Yeah. That's extremely I think that's really insightful, actually, because. So think of it this way. When you're forced to question society's definition of something as so supposedly fundamental as sex and gender, what does professional wear even mean? Like you've already. Oh, well, this all is made up. Look at all this other stuff that's made up. And, um, living authentically is, like, the most important thing that anybody can do. And for some of us, based on minoritized experiences, neurodivergent gender and a myriad of different things, um, you are forced, like there is a certain forcing of your hand to, um, to kind of be yourself. And once you are authentically you, it is so hard and painful to go back and you start to pull apart all of the other threads of lies and such that are forced on you. Not to get existential, but the idea from a lot of my psych background and philosophy background with Kierkegaard and Maslow and talking about how, like cultures, large and small, force their values on you. They maintain their values through taboo keeping. That's why there's not a written dress code, but there sure is a dress code that is maintained through taboo keeping. And when you start seeing all of that for the lies that it is, it's hard for it to have. Like it's harder for it to have power over you and it's easier to accept whatever punishment comes along with that transgression. And because, like, there's nothing that they could have done that would have pushed me back into that space.

Adriana
So, Victoria, I'm sure a hundred a thousand things were on your mind on that time. So walk us through how you felt and how. I'm sure there was a lot of, you know, back and forth with yourself. You couldn't share with some people that you may trusted or you were not sure. So walk us through how your mind worked on that time.

Vistoria
So in the early in the early part, when I came out and socially transitioned, as they say, um, like the students for the most part, absolutely supportive, like would would go several of the students were. They really fought for me. I had a colleague, Maggie Folan, who is just one of the best people, and like, she retired. So like, it's fine. She gets to live in Ireland, but like, but I still miss her, like all the time. She her son's trans, uh. And so she was very, like, supportive and very fiercely supportive. And then having, like, Colleen and some other of my colleagues that knew and accepted was very helpful in a lot of that. Uh, in the more like, personal social side. Most of my friends were reasonable with it. There was one friend in particular that, like, wanted to argue, and I had to just cut ties with him because I was like, no, like, I'm not like, if that's the way you're going to be, if you're trying to, like, convince me that I'm not girl enough, you are. You need some soul searching. You have a lot to work on with yourself. Goodbye. Forever. Um, I think my favorite response was my younger sisters because I invited her over. We had like a I had a bottle of wine and all of this stuff she was mad at. She she had been holding a grudge for a long time because I couldn't go to her wedding, uh, because I had to work. And if I didn't work that shift, I wouldn't have enough money for rent. But it didn't make it feel any better. Um, so she held a grudge for a while that I couldn't go because we were very close growing up. And so I have her over, and we're, like, sharing this bottle of wine. And she's there in her jeans and flannel, and I'm there and I'm, like, explaining this whole thing. And her whole response was just, you were always more of a girl than me drinks wine. And so that was perfect. Um, I loved that. Yeah.

Susan
She saw you like she really saw you the whole time.

Vistoria
It's funny because she was like. I always wanted to have a sister growing up. And. Look, it turns out I did. And so, like, we've been really close, like, ever since my my my parents, uh, my dad's response was just, hey, I know you were struggling with with something. I'm glad you figured it out. Like, whatever it is, it was actually harder for him when I decided to change my name because he's the one who originally named me, and I had to explain what my new name meant, and that it was still like in keeping with what he was going for, that he accepted it. And my mom, who is a continuous source of frustration growing up and complex PTSD, she was like going to say something. I'm like, look, your choice right now is to keep saying what you're saying and then never speak to me again or shut the hell up and get over yourself. Like, if you want to have me in your life in any meaningful way, you need to just accept that this is how it is. The end. Um, and my dad helped my dad and my sister, I think helped a lot with like, sorting out her where she was originally going. And she's fine with it now. She's she's very, very supportive, um, in that respect. Uh, at work, though, it was, it felt weirdly righteous in a way. Like there was something where I was so vindicated in their hate. Like the staff people in the administration were the people that I had to contend with the most like. So I socially transitioned. And within a week, one of the staff members filed a claim against me at title nine because she was afraid I was going to sexually predate on the students because I'm now out as such a deviant. Um, and she was like twisting words in an email to like, verify what she was saying. And I'm like, so I had to go to the title nine office and like, respond to this ridiculous allegation. And I was just so like, like I it was a weird mix of both being like, oh, I super cannot trust these people. And also, how fucking dare you! Uh, so it was this like, strange mix of that kind of like anxiety and righteousness. Uh, if that makes sense.

Susan
It does make sense. And I almost kind of wonder. And this could be really off, off the rails, but, you know, you got voted as most likely to repeat Columbine in high school. And so I feel like maybe you you'd already kind of played that role a little bit, right. Like you'd kind of already been in that space of

Vistoria
Pariah?

Susan
Yeah. And and not that that's a good thing. But, like, I wonder if that that experience when you were younger kind of helped you. Because what I'm hearing is that, like you, you knew yourself like, by the time you socially transitioned. Like, once you put on those leggings like it was all done. Like no one was gonna. So you didn't really have this, like, vacillating. It's like you spent that time in therapy for two months and you got that. That's when you did that work.

Vistoria
I mean, to a certain extent, I vacillated for the previous, like 20 years. Sure, sure, sure. Is really what it was. Yeah. And so it was just. It's just time I couldn't possibly.

Susan
Yeah, that was it. Gosh, I love that. I also love what you said, and I want to come back to it. Um, and I'm not going to say it right again, but you said something about when they force, they force you to wear the mask so long that you forget that it's there.

Victoria
You forget, you forget. You wear the mask long enough that you forget what your face is. Yes. Yeah.

Susan
Wow. And I. Yes, yes to that. How do we. How do we, like, get between the face and the mask? Like as as outsiders. As like a community. Like, how do we nudge that back off?

Victoria
Um, so to paraphrase this, this is the most me thing, to paraphrase Maslow. Uh, the only way to reach self-actualization is to understand how culture has its effect on you, but that you will be existing within cultures, and therefore you must don and doff them as a cloak, I believe, is the specific thing. So you have to learn how to like, navigate cultures and understand and question what they are imparting on you. Like there's a reason why most people are the same religion as their parents. There's a there's a reason like everybody becomes Inculturated is the term um, and understanding and questioning those things is so important of like, what do I actually value? What have I adopted downstream of other things that I have adopted from like things I've been told, things I've, you know, other people have done because whenever you believe someone or adopt somebody's values, you are adopting everything that comes along with them, whether or not you know it. And so it almost goes back to that questioning of like, I've already disproved sex and gender are a thing, and that's as fundamental as it comes, right? Let's question it all. Like, let's keep going. Like, what is the truth? Who am I? What am I? How do we go about this? And then you start to see all of the problems, all the lies, so to speak. All of. But but also some of the values, right. So from the perspective of like a program or a school or something like that, understanding this professionalism problem, like if you're in a healthcare program and professionalism is a thing. So this paper that I'll never actually get around to writing because it's not part of my job description. I really don't have the kind of patience to write academic papers. Is that in a place like pharmacy and I'm learning to understand. In basically all health sciences, professionalism has three definitions. Professionalism is decided and codified by the organizations as having certain values like the pharmacy organization is like, professionalism means these ten things. But those ten things don't mean dressing up. No nice know it's and so you have to understand it. Contend with that. Professionalism also harkens back to an essentially white supremacist values that was inculturated in the 70s, because certain things that are considered professional or not professional go back to specific taboo keeping exclusionary tactics in that culture. At the time, that class culture tattoos, which were in the DSM three, I believe, considered a marker of self-harm, they were seen as being a marker of somebody who was either a criminal or somebody who sailed the world and then dealt with other cultures who were non-white, because that's where tattoos originally, or they actually originated from the Philippines, I think. Um, and so that's why Visible Tattoos is unprofessional, because you you look like somebody who has dealt with people of other races that you look like a criminal. That's the value that is being kept in that moment. Right. Uh, and there's so many things like that. Uh, the old student dress code, which it took me two years of fighting to get it reduced to what it is now for the pharmacy school. We used to have one of the most regressive. We had the most regressive dress code on campus until, like 2019, something like that. And to the point where, like the other faculty who were like in diversity inclusion spaces made fun of us for being stuck in like the 60s and 70s with this kind of stuff. One of the things on that dress code was that you couldn't, that students weren't supposed to wear earrings that were over an inch in size, and this wasn't a lab dress code because there's like a certain dress code for like, safety. Like that makes sense. But this is like if you have a professional dress day, if you're going into like a clinic, you're going to meet with patients. You can't have large earrings because you know who large earrings are associated with, not white people. And so like, again, it's like this, this taboo keeping to keep certain people out of this professional class space. And so you you have to understand that like when, when my old department chair said you aren't dressed professionally today. She wasn't saying that I was acting disrespectful. She wasn't saying that I wasn't embodying any of the values that the profession says is what professionalism is. She was offended that I had colorful socks, Literally. And that's just not professional. You got to you got to buy the fancy $20 a pair black socks, don't you understand? Keeping. It's all class taboo. Keeping until colorful socks became super cool in like, the banking sector. And now colorful socks are totally fine. Yeah, well, and in the same way that, like, the tattoos. Like they did it. I forget what what hospital it was. They did a big study on nurses that had visible tattoos, and they found that actually patients were more likely to trust and respect nurses who had visible tattoos because it shows more of like who they are. And that's why a lot of younger people, like my generation and younger are very vibrant in having tattoos. It's one of the reasons why I stopped covering mine and got even more creative and, um, you know, confrontational perhaps about some of them because, like, I know that it's bullshit if they come after me for that taboo keeping for for that professionalism standard. And then if you're curious, the the third way that professionalism is used is actually to divorce a person from their labor. Uh, the idea of what? You're not you're not a laborer. You shouldn't have a union. You're a professional. This is a calling. You should just get exploited. Uh, is the other thing. That would be the third part of my paper that I'm never going to write.

Susan
I, I was talking to a group of physician assistants about this, and, um, and, you know, they said, well, I have the Hippocratic oath. And if I would go on strike, then that would be against the do no harm. Um, and we got into an interesting conversation about, you know, does neglect of sort of not not talking about, you know, the rights of, of patients and also providers for, you know, good work life balance and safe staffing ratios and things like is that if you're not engaging in that conversation, are you not doing harm? Um, but yeah, I do I think I think there is there is definitely something there. And I, and I actually think that faculty are are one way that are pushing back on that narrative a little bit, which is really cool.

Victoria
I mean, there's a reason why I was the only person in the pharmacy school for a long time that was supporting the faculty union. And I would say to that physician friend of yours isn't billing your patients for treating something that they had no control over exploiting them. Isn't that harming them as well? It's like one of the fundamental challenges of like things that are legal, things that are required are not necessarily ethical. Like we charge people for money that is literally to save their life. Why is there a cost of living? Like who? Who decided that living should have a cost? And you know, are are you like isn't your practice in this entire system based on exploiting other people, Also harming them. And shouldn't you fight for your and their betterment? Right?

Susan
Right. Oh, gosh. You need to write that paper. I want to read it. I will help you write it. Oh, like I like I have any extra time.

Victoria
Yeah. Keep that on wax. Don't don't delete don't delete that. I'll bring that back because it's.

Susan
Yeah. And I think there's something there about, you know, how can we ask people to show up as their true selves when we have these double standards about what it is to be professional? To me, I don't want someone to be professional. I want them to be authentic, and I want them to also be humble in recognizing that sometimes their behavior or the way that they choose to show up may hurt others. And how do you sort of navigate that? And I'm not talking about like offending somebody who doesn't think that, like, your marginalized group has a right to exist. I'm talking about like the person who's like, you know, I refuse to to mask in the height of the pandemic because I don't want to. And it's like, well, that's authentic, but you're not really you're not demonstrating any humility and like, desire to just want to help your fellow human.

Victoria
It's toxic individualism. It's something this country is really based on. Yeah, in a big way. And some of that even goes to like the. Are you familiar with the paradox of tolerance?

Susan
I am, I am.

Victoria
Are you familiar about the fact that, like, it's easily solvable and not really a paradox?

Susan
So explain to our listeners what the paradox of tolerance is.

Victoria
So the paradox of tolerance is this very philosophical like question. I guess if you create a situation where you are tolerant to everyone, don't you have to be tolerant to the intolerant? And then they when they are intolerant to you, you can't give them any kind of retribution because you must remain tolerant or you're a hypocrite. And it's just a very simple thing that like, the answer to that is that the tolerance is a social contract. And if you break that social contract, you are no longer covered by it. So if you invite intolerant people into a space that is to be tolerant and they act intolerant, they make that space worse for other people who are there and should be reprimanded or removed for the safety of other people because they no longer follow, they no longer fall under the paradox of tolerance. This is something that the university like really fails to grasp. With the recent, like the last few years, we've had a lot of reactionary speakers come to campus and there are various levels of protesting and things. Uh, but the campus, the The university's response to it. The the faculty have mostly been in support of the protests because you don't want these people on your campus. But the administration, they are allowed, by virtue of their position and the privilege that being in that position of hierarchical power gives them that they can say, well, personally, I don't really think what they're saying is appropriate, and I think it's pretty intolerant that they think that all trans people should be eradicated. But as an administrative person of this university, I have to support their right of free speech. And even though hate speech isn't actually covered under free speech and all of that kind of stuff, I can't get in their way about it. And you know what? I'm going to give the police overtime to make sure that those 20 protesters don't do anything too ridiculous. And so then you have a situation like the Candace Owens event, that you've got 300 fascists lined up around a university building. You have 60 cops out there looking to beat somebody down, and you have 20 students dressed up as clowns protesting them. And it's just like the. And the people who are protesting are, like, minoritized in a variety of ways. They're more likely to be brutalized by the police. And all of this kind of stuff. And I'm like, how can you possibly stand by that? Like, actions and actions do have meaning. Like, you say one thing, you do another thing, and then you do this other thing on the side that you don't see any problem with. And it's just like a fundamental failure to meaningfully protect people who need protection. And in the end, like there's so the med school, every once in a while, they call me in to do a queer 101 as part of their orientation. Sex and gender 101 sometimes. And there's this, like, little meme that I have at the end to try to reinforce a lot of the concepts. And it's there's a person standing there and another person running up. Oh, help, help! He's trying to kill me. And and the person says, oh no, I don't want to get involved. I think what he's trying to do is terrible, but I don't want to get involved. And then the next panel is the person with the baseball bat brutally murdering the person who was just yelling for help. And then the last panel is that person like like being like, hey, thanks for the help, buddy. Like fist bumping the person who was inactive. Like, what's that old saying that the only thing for evil, the only thing that evil needs to triumph, is for good people to do nothing. And, you know, we're not even talking about good people in this circumstance because they can't even succeed at a task that you could put forth in, like a philosophy 101 course. And it's just so frustrating to me that this keeps happening. I mean, but I do want to say that I do understand why being a state university they're afraid of like getting the funding in trouble with the state legislature, folks, because I know that the legislature has swung in a particular direction. So, like, I understand that they're cowards, but it's still not, like, supportive of the people on campus who need the most support.

Susan
Well, and I think the argument that I've always heard that it just doesn't sit right with me is this idea of, well, if it were the other way, you would want the space to be able to speak. Like if they didn't like, let's say, I don't know, somebody who was pro-choice and that was really, you know, not okay. But like and I just and I just have trouble with that because I feel like but you're, you're talking about people who are intolerant. So like those rights there would be no free speech, right? Like there isn't a flipped coin because on the flip side, the the the the speech is just taken away. Yeah. As I see it.

Victoria
Well, and follow the power. The people who are pro-life are trying to exert power over other people's bodies. People who are pro-choice are trying to exert power over their own bodies. You can almost always follow that if you're trying to exert power over another person. And I understand that, like that argument being like, oh, but they're disagreeing with me because they're pro-choice and they think that I shouldn't be, like violently pro-life or whatever, but like. A pro-life, there are more abortion doctors who have been killed by pro-lifers than pro-choice people have harmed anyone. Like and even like philosophically, like all of the evidence supports pro-choice. That's the other thing that I hate is this, like weird centrist equivocating with things that have evidence in perhaps a much lower stakes version. I recently had a conversation with one of the administrative people at my work, and I was like, oh, I was talking about something. He's like, oh, did you go to. What did you take this to the curriculum committee? And I'm like, oh, they don't understand what I'm doing. Like, they don't understand how my class works at all because I don't have lectures or exams or anything. Like, what are they going to do? I have to explain to them, like modern pedagogic techniques, like modern teaching, like anything like that. They've never done any of the work. They don't have to. And he's like, well, don't you think you're being a little, you know, they just have a different belief. And I'm like, no, I have evidence to support my work. And when I request evidence to support their perspective, they don't have any. There's a difference there. But so it goes back to the problem fundamentally with like, you know, the old saying of like, well, everyone's entitled to their opinion. Well, that's just explaining that you don't know what words mean, because entitled means that you're allowed to have something without fear of reprisal. If you are of the opinion that you can fly and you jump off the cathedral, you will find that you are not actually entitled to that opinion. You were just legally allowed to have it. And so somebody who isn't masking is exerting power over other people around them because they are being a risk for the population around them during a pandemic, which is wildly like. It. It's them trying to exert a little bit of power in the world. And it fundamentally comes from a place where people feel like they don't have power, like society is made, and capitalism atomises all of us to be in positions where we don't have autonomy, we don't have power, we don't feel like we have competence. And so any opportunity to exert power over other people or over ourselves is relished. And it's where so many of the problems that we talk about come from. So, oh, they say that I need to wear a mask outside. Well, that's exerting power over me. Well, no, it's actually a recommendation based on evidence to protect people who are at risk. Ah, but I'm going to show them. I'm going to get back at them. I'm not going to wear a mask. Meaning that now you're a risk vector for this problem, but at least you can feel like you have some kind of power before you end up on that ventilator in the hospital. And so it's like it always comes back to that kind of thing, is that society is broken. And the response to that, you can either I mean, you can try to ignore it. You can try to get back and exert whatever you can, power wise or autonomy wise against it, or you can try to fight it. And there's a reason why the majority of minoritized people lean left politically is because we would. It's like the system isn't broken. It's actually made this way. It was intended to do this. And so maybe it just reminds me of every time I talk at my school where I'm like, our curriculum is fundamentally inhumane and we need to change it. And they say, well, we can't just blow up the whole curriculum. I'm like, why? Why can't we do that? We have accreditation standards. We know what we need to teach. Aren't you all experts at this? Can't we blow it up and start over and make it better? Can't we change that system, make it a game worth playing? And the answer is always we don't have the time. We don't have the money. We don't have the resources. And it's just like, well, maybe we should change those systems too. And maybe you should have the time and maybe you should have the resources. And I don't know, it just keeps going. And that's why I'm an anarchist.

Susan
So I think there are kind of there's so many takeaways I feel like from from today. But if I had to pick two. I think I would, I would, I would offer to folks and Adriana, I'm curious to hear yours too, but I would offer for folks to stay open to your Eckerd moment where you just got to take an opportunity. If it comes up, you never know where it will. It will lead you. Um, which sounds cliche, but I feel like when you call it an Eckerd moment, it's, like, not cliche anymore. It's just funny. Um, and the other one is to, um, to wear your fucking leggings. Yeah. Absolutely. Right. Like, I mean, everyone has that. Whatever that means for you. Whether it's like, like, um, metaphorical or literal, like, just wear your leggings.

Victoria
Yeah. Um, funny, funny story. The the dress code that I fought against for two years specifically had a clause in it that said that if a student wears leggings to lecture, you are to ask them to go home. And I'm like, absolutely not.

Susan
Wear your leggings. Okay, Adriana, I want to hear from you.

Adriana
Um, so I actually would like to have a takeaway based on Victoria's, um, point of view. I always try to look at both sides and what I'm thinking now, for our listeners who really want to be inclusive, fair, kind, what could we tell them that they could do to support our transgender and gender diverse colleagues and friends?

Victoria
Well, I mean, now this is going to sound cliché, but one of the most important things you can do is listen. And not all of us like, I literally like teach on this as part of my like professional things. I teach plenty of people about like gender affirmation and transgender experience and all these kind of things. But that doesn't mean that every person of a minoritized experience owes you an explanation. So like, listen to them, but also like, understand and try not to push your views, your power onto another person because you don't know what values you may have inculturated into your personality and your identity and being open and flexible. I mean to bring everything back around. I guess to a certain extent, you have to be willing to talk with people and listen to them and understand where they're coming from. And you can question. You can like, oh, but wait but hold on and like push back and stuff. But as long as it's oh man, Mario is going to really come after me. As long as you have an appropriate dialogue. Um, and you're willing to, like, have that conversation and willing to be there. I mean, humility is a thing that I feel like is lost a lot of the time in a lot of these conversations. And it's so important, like, you need to show up and like be willing to listen to them, understand who they are, and then use that to reflect on who you are, the like when you there's sort of a joke that discussing gender with cis people is like a mother like, and a child like. Playing with blocks and then discussing gender with trans people is like philosophers, like walking through as I just describe a visual meme on a podcast, I guess. But you know what I mean. It's this idea of like the explanations and like the depth of it is different because it's directly necessary for me to understand and justify who I am every day. And, you know, maybe even as a cisgender person, you could find value in questioning some of those values yourself. Absolutely. If I may. Susan, I know that you used to have an eyebrow piercing.

Susan
It's true.

Victoria
And I think you said that it forced its way out. But I know you never got a new one. Why didn't you ever get that back?

Susan
I have too many things to take care of. And I tried to get an ear piercing, and it got horribly infected. Not infected, but just angry. And so I just told my. I told myself that my body was too old to talk about an ism, right? Too old, too old. I was like, I'm over, you know, whatever.

Victoria
And so I'm. Yeah. So a safety safety reasons aside, do you know how old I was when I got my eyebrow piercing? 39.

Susan
Oh, I've got time then. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Victoria
Yeah, I'm just saying, like, if it's something that you found value, you found personal, like, expression, and, um, then there's no such thing as too old. That's like, I have a friend who's older than me, and I'm always like, so when am I taking you to get your tattoo? And he's like, I don't want more pain in my life than I already have. And I'm just like, ah, you're a coward. But but it's the idea of like, do what makes you happy as long as it's not hurting other people. If what makes you happy is hurting other people, then like, there's there's other things we need to talk about, but, um, you know, bring other people to the table, be willing to talk about those kinds of things. That's so much more important. Like to go back to your to your question, Understand. Try to understand where they're coming from. I mean, it's one of the reasons why, like. When you start studying, like, this kind of philosophy and psychology and politics and these kinds of ideas, you inevitably have to understand and interrogate arguments made against the things that you believe because you need to start questioning everything. Mhm. And um, because I was if you had said something about the fact that like, you don't have it because, well, you're in this like professional space or whatever.

Susan
Well I mean I knew better than to do that, but. Yeah. No. Right, right.

Victoria
But but still you ascribed a certain valuation on it based on age.

Susan
That's true. I did. Mhm.

Victoria
Who made that rule.

Susan
I don't know. My I had an attending who got her eyebrow pierced in her 40s. And she also noticed my scar and was like when are you going to get that back. And I was like I'll, I'll think about it. But the truth is to your friend who's like, I don't need any more pain. I don't need anything else to take care of right now. I've got two kids and two cats and a husband, and that's enough. I'm good for now. But someday.

Victoria
You know what? Valid. And if you need a ride, I'll take you.

Susan
Well, Victoria, thank you so much for being here today. This was. I just. My cup is full like today. Like I'm just. My soul is replenished and I'm gonna I'm gonna, like, lean into my Eckhard moments and wear my leggings and just feel I'm gonna leave here feeling really good. Thank you for being here. Hey, thanks for having me. Anytime I get to come down here and hang out with you on some of these things. I'm here for it. Thank you so much. Thank you. Who We Are Inside is created and hosted by Susan Graf and Adriana Modesto Gomes da Silva, in collaboration with Karthik Hariharan and John Gannan. Thanks for being here.

Music
♪ I still have stories to tell ♪ ♪ I feel ♪ ♪ I still have stories to tell ♪