Susan
Welcome to who We Are inside a Cupid podcast. Today I have with me a good friend, Doctor Nancy Govan. She is the associate dean for equity, diversity, inclusion and community engagement in the School of Health and Rehab Sciences at Pitt. She aims to meet the requested research and programming needs of our community partners at the Wellness Pavilion in the Community Engagement Center in Homewood, and her work focuses on addressing the health and wellness needs of our community, including our students, staff, faculty, and the community at large. Doctor Gauvin, thank you so, so much for being here today.

Nancy
Thank you for having me.

Susan
So, um, when I asked you about why we were coming today, you said you wanted to talk about confidence as armor. And so I did a little research, aka I googled, and I wanted to share with you what I found because I thought it was really interesting. Um, so if you Google confidence, the definition, at least for the Oxford Dictionary, is firm trust and a feeling of self-assurance arising from one's own abilities or qualities, and I thought this was particularly interesting. The example was she is brimming with confidence, and I feel like that informs or I imagine, will likely inform, our conversation. This idea of she must brim with confidence. Um, and that kind of pronoun was intentional. Um, so I'm curious. I'm curious what made you pick that that concept of confidence as armor?

Nancy
Well, that's how I show up. Um, and I walk into a room or walk into a meeting or walk into or sit in a zoom meeting or, or a teams meeting is I walk in with that confidence. Um, I it's intentional because, um, if I don't, um, as a woman, as a person of color, um, it is assumed that I don't know enough or don't have the information, so I have to come in there with the confidence to show that, yes, I am here. Um, I do know what I'm talking about. I do know why I'm here and what I'm meant to do. And it it protects me and it keeps me, um, it's self it's self-assurance as well. It helps me to navigate the spaces where you typically wouldn't see a person like me in a meeting or at the table.

Susan
Um, so what I'm hearing is it's a, it's a it's a positive thing for you. This armor is like necessary and positive and protecting in a way that feels good.

Nancy
Yeah. It protects, um, everything that I know about myself. It protects my intellectual property of knowledge. It protects, um, you know, whatever's thrown at me as well. So if ever there's a time where I'm having a conversation with someone who, um, may or may not have bias towards what I know or how I know it. The confidence that I am bringing to the table, uh, lessons that, um.

Susan
Yeah, yeah, I think that, um, I think as, as women, I see this as, like a, it's armor against the patriarchy is really what I think about it. And like, white supremacy. Sorry to, like, take it there right away, but yeah.

Nancy
You went right there.

Susan
I did, I did, but like. Yeah, I mean, I think there's a reason that that that dictionary um definition used she's bringing brimming with confidence. Why isn't he why isn't it, he is brimming with confidence. He doesn't have to. Yeah. And I think when you think about like intersectionality and the layers of of identity like of course. Of course you use confidence as an armor. And I'm I'm wondering, what can you give me like an example of where you feel like I'm picturing this as, like a, like an inner armor that you draw on when you feel like you need to show up in a particular way, in a particular space. Is that am I sort of getting that?

Nancy
Yeah.

Susan
So can you give me an example? Can you, like, walk me through what that feels like for you? Like, how do you prepare? How do you put on your armor?

Nancy
Um, so I had an 8 a.m. meeting this morning that I had to do that for. Um, so I was meeting with senior leadership about a topic that I asked to have the conversation about. And so I even though these are people that I get along with and they're very, you know, amiable, good working relationship, I still, as the only woman in the room, still had to draw on that strength and confidence to to get my point across and to share my thoughts and concerns and and to be heard and and listened to. Um, sometimes, you know, we're heard, but we're not listened to. And I'm wanting, wanting to make sure that what my point, what the point that I was trying to make was being was does come across clearly and efficiently, but at the same time, um, I'm coming with the, the, the what's the word I want to use outside of confidence.

Susan
Firm trust?

Nancy
Um, the surety that I, that what I'm asking for and what I'm what the topic of conversation is something that is meritus that we should be talking about this.

Susan
Yeah.

Nancy
Um, and so it was a conversation that, you know, I was, you know, nervous and apprehensive about, but it was a conversation that I felt went well.

Susan
Oh, yeah. Yeah. So when I think about confidence, I think about, like, projecting confidence when we're not feeling confident on the inside versus confidence as it's defined, which is this firm trust in ourselves and our abilities in our knowing. And it sounds like you're really identifying with confidence as that second one, that firm trust in yourself as opposed to a projection.

Nancy
Yeah. So I did suffer like most of imposter syndrome, right. Um, and there are times I have to say that that still presents itself, um, depending on, you know, who you're, who you're engaging with. Um, but I do trust myself 100%. And I know that what I'm doing and how I'm doing it and how I move in my role as associate Dean, how I, how I, um, move in my role as an assistant professor, how I move in my role as a woman and as a black woman, um, that I'm projecting what I believe about myself appropriately. So it's understood that, you know, this confidence. My armor is not only a protector, but it's also keeping everything, everything that I hold dear. It's keeping it safe. So, um, I make sure that that when I'm in these spaces, um, outside of when I'm in my home, in my, you know, pajamas, um, or just relaxing with my relaxing at home with my loved ones that I make sure that I show up in a way that is, um, always confident, protecting myself, but also knowing that the knowledge that I'm sharing is something of value. Yeah.

Susan
Yeah. I'm curious, when did you build this armor? Like, when did it? When did you first notice it?

Nancy
That's a great question. Um. It happened not suddenly, but very rapidly, over time, very rapidly in a short period of time. So initially when, when I started noticing that I had this confidence, it was, um, transitioning from one role to another, uh, at a previous institution and realizing that whatever I was projecting, if I was projecting insecurity or if I was projecting, um, doubt or if I was projecting imposter syndrome, like, I maybe I shouldn't be here. I don't deserve it or I haven't, you know, um, even though I have earned it, I just felt like I didn't deserve it. Um, I want to make that clear. Because there's a difference, right? Like, I have earned it, but I felt like I didn't deserve it because, you know, you just not sure if this is the right thing for you. I realized that if I didn't have that confidence within myself, how am I expecting anyone else to believe it and know it about me? And it was just like a light switch that went off. And I started operating differently and just saying, okay, well, you believe this about yourself. You know, just walk into a room with that belief. And so I started doing that and it was changing the climate that I walked into. So it was like, you know, cloudy before I walked in there. And then I'd walk in. It was sunny.

Susan
It was sunny! When you walk in, it is sunny. Oh, I, I love that. And I wonder as, um, as I imagine that many of our listeners are like, how did you find that? Like for I imagine that so many people are like, yeah, I wish that I could do that, but I don't think that I can. It's like that grappling with I don't deserve it. Um, which goes back to this idea, I think that, you know, women often don't celebrate their wins, right? We we are supposed to be, you know, humble and gracious and all of these things. So like, how do how do you can you give us any advice on how to tap into that?

Nancy
Well, I definitely was observed how other people and who were successful in their, um, in their careers, how they navigated, um, situations. So I was very much observing that. And then and then I tapped into, um, understanding that if I operated the way that I once did, which was doubtful and meek and I'm not sure, and that it wasn't serving what I wanted to do and I wasn't being heard, like I would be in meetings. And I know you, you're probably going to be hard for you to believe this, but this really happened. Um, I would be meetings and people would talk over me and as if I wasn't there, like I was invisible. And it was this.

Susan
I'm sorry. I'm just. I'm taking that in because, uh. okay. Sorry. Go ahead.

Nancy
So I would be so I would be I would make a point and nobody heard me. And then someone else would the person next to me heard what I would say and take my point and move it forward. And then they were like, that's a great idea. And I'm like, I just said that. So I hated that feeling and I think it was born from that. Like, how do I respectfully get my thoughts across without overpowering a conversation, but also being respectful of the people around me and I, I learned from that, like, okay, I don't want to be disrespectful because that was my experience. So all the negative things that I experienced, I took in and changed it to a positive. And I, I diligently work on that diligently because I sometimes have an idea and I, you know, I want to say what I have to say right away, but I have to remember someone else is still talking, so let them finish. Um, so I'm that's something I'm working on. But, um, but it is something I'm, I've tapped into, um, observing how other people were navigating these, these, these professional spaces and then observing that, seeing how I can adapt it to be beneficial to me. And then also, if I don't believe in myself, how am I going to get anyone else to believe in what I have to say? But I and the hard part about it is being open to not being arrogant about it, to being open to other ideas that maybe you hadn't thought of or hadn't considered. So it's definitely. So the answer is baptism by fire. So it was don't do those things. Do this and then hone it for yourself. But it is definitely having a deep conversation with yourself about what works for you. Because not my way works for me, but it may not work for others. So definitely tap into what what are your strengths? What are some things that you are happiest about? One of the things that makes me happy is I have, you know, I tend to hear that I have a great sense of humor. Like I come in with these zingers and and it's funny. It lightens the space. And I like to use humor, if I can, to make things move forward.

Susan
So I love that. I love this idea of having a deep conversation with yourself. And I think one of the themes that we've discovered, um, I think more just like highlighted because I feel like I've, I've known this since I've been in therapy for almost 20 years. Um, have we all like, you know, it's so important. Yes, yes. It's so it's so important that, like, you can't it's like you can't love until you love yourself. You can't have other people be confident in you until you have that confidence in yourself. And and so thinking about, well, why why am I getting talked over. Yes. There's of course a systems perspective there that is valid. But also maybe it's because I'm, I'm not feeling confident that I deserve to be in this space, that I deserve to say I'm I'm still talking. Right. Who was it? It was. I think it was Hillary Clinton. Didn't she say that? Yeah. She was like, I'm still talking. Yeah. Um, which is powerful. And I think one of the things that, um, that we can all do to support that confidence, to maybe help folks feel like they do deserve to be in the room. And I, I learned this from, um, this was what Obama's staffers did because he was guilty of, like, you know, talking over and whatever is if there if somebody had an idea, um, another person who was like in on it would speak up and say, oh, you know, so and so had this, had this. Great. Thank you so much for that idea. I really appreciate it. Can we talk about this more? So it was like forcing a pause in the conversation, naming the person who actually had the idea, who's often a woman, um, and not allowing that idea to be kind of commandeered by another person in the room. So I thought that was really cool. And I try to do that intentionally in, in meetings. And I think that where, where I learned confidence. Um, and it definitely, I think was it came off as arrogance initially and then um, oh gosh, all of the things that like, you're, you're not supposed to be as a woman, like, you know, feisty and, um, intense and mean bossy, all of those things. But was when I worked in the neuro ICU and I developed it, I think, because it was in a caregiving role. And so I felt comfortable being like, well, I'm not confident because I want to believe in me. I'm confident because I'm saving this person's life and up against neurosurgeons like it is a dog eat dog world, I imagine. Yeah. And there are there were very few women, uh, residents. There were two, I think, in the entire time that I worked there. So, you know, there's the power dynamic of doctor to physician assistant man to woman. At least when I started, you know, age was a factor, too. By the time I ended, it was flipped. But, you know, um, if I wasn't confident, people would die. And so, like, I had to learn it. And then I think it's like, once you have it, it's like riding a bike or like, I don't know, learning how to to write or read like it doesn't. It translates into all these different spaces. Yeah. And so I'm almost grateful for that kind of. What did you say? Baptism by fire.

Nancy
Yeah. Yes.

Susan
Like absolutely different fire. Same. Same response. So. Right. Um. What do you think? What do you think is the price we pay? Or specifically, what do you think is the price you've paid for that confidence? Because I imagine that it's not it's not always free. Right.

Nancy
Yeah. No, it's not free. Um, It's transitioned into my personal life in a lot of ways. Um, so I and that's something I've learned to tame, um, in my friendships and my relationships with my family and friends. Um, because, you know, I go home and, and I'm, you know, not a dictator, but I'm like, I need this done. I need this done, you know? So, um, um, so I've like, you know, realized, okay, well, that's not how, you know, in business and work and, you know, in university is business, right? So you have initiatives, you have goals, you have things that you're trying to, uh, get them met. Um, but at home and with your family, it's not that. It's how can we as a collective, work together to make the home function? So so that's something I've had to learn how to switch off. And I think specifically in my friendships with other women who are successful. Um, you know, we're all talking at the same time. So, you know, my so my my best friend’s a neonatologist. And we've been friends since five years old. So she's like a top physician in her field. And so when we're talking, we're both talking at the same time, and it's like, okay, wait wait wait wait. Let's let's like, we're not at work, you know? You know, she's rattling orders like she's talking to a nurse, and I'm rattling orders like I'm talking to my staff. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, let's. So just learning that how to change and how to transition, um, has it cost me? I think it's improved my life. I can't say it's cost me. I think it's helped me see things about myself that I want to work on. Um, because if you're facing one aspect of yourself, by having this deep conversation with yourself, you're then faced having to face other aspects of yourself that you want to work on. And I tell everyone you know, I'm a work in progress. I'll be a work in progress until my last breath. And I think that has humbled me and kept me true to who I am. By keeping that in, by knowing that I'm not perfect and I'm going to make mistakes. And maybe I shouldn't have said this, and maybe I shouldn't have done that, but at least next time I know to do it differently and how to maneuver in a way that's more successful. So I think it's helped me. I don't think it's hindered me. But outside of being a little bossy at home, yeah,

Susan
That resonates a lot for me. And I'm sure my husband too, if he's listening to this. So, um. What? I want to read you, um, a definition of of confidence that I think it really speaks to what you're talking about. And then I want to get your thoughts on it. So, and this is, um, from my one of my favorite people of all time, Brene Brown. So if you're listening, Brené, this is your these are your words Goals in life. Um, okay. So grounded confidence is curiosity, plus the willingness to rumble with vulnerability and practice.

Nancy
Can you repeat that, please?

Susan
Yeah. So grounded confidence. She added that grounded is curiosity, plus the willingness to rumble with vulnerability plus practice.

Nancy
That sounds accurate.

Susan
Which part of it kind of jumps out at you the most?

Nancy
The vulnerability. Because in order to have the confidence, having that deep conversation with yourself is you have to be open to your flaws and knowing what works and what doesn't work, and knowing what you can't do, not only what you can do, but what is not for you. Yeah, there are things that are not for you. They're just, you know, there's not something that you feel comfortable doing. Um, and knowing those boundaries. Knowing what this is, what makes me comfortable. This is what I can do successfully. These are areas that I don't feel comfortable in. And being open enough with yourself and vulnerable enough with yourself to say, okay, that's fine. That's okay.

Susan
Yeah. Is there space in in the spaces that we're kind of talking about for vulnerability to shine through the armor?

Nancy
Absolutely. I mean, um, yeah, I think confidence is, um, there, but vulnerability is part of the threat of that confidence. So, um, if you're not again, if you're not in tune with yourself, then how could you be in tune with what's happening around you? Um, so it's important to be able to pick up on that. Um, so back to your your statement at the start of our conversation about patriarchy. You know, being vulnerable helps you discern the difference. Like, is that patriarchy or does this person really know more than you do. Mhm.

Susan
Oh my gosh. Wait I'm going to repeat that. Vulnerability is the way that you know the difference between patriarchy and someone's true knowledge. That is not your own.

Nancy
Right. It helps you identify it. You're like okay so I've been in conversations where I'm like, well that's patriarchy. Yeah. And then other conversations where I'm like, oh, this person actually knows more. So I need to listen. Yeah. So it helps me tune out, you know, bias being, you know, mansplaining something that that makes that's completely outside of their wheelhouse versus someone who's genuinely trying to share their knowledge with you. Yeah. And being vulnerable with yourself and being vulnerable in that space opens you up to seeing the difference between the two. Mhm. That's just one example.

Susan
But yeah I love that because I do think that what I've experienced sometimes is that it's hard to take that armor off. Like it's hard to be, to be vulnerable and to stay humble and to not just sort of assume your mansplaining to me or your, you know, you're not listening to me. Um, for me, like in my, in my personal life, like not being heard or not being listened to is like a big trigger for me. And it came out a lot when, um, my son was in the NICU because I found myself knowing more or being more experienced in sort of critical illness than a lot of the nurses who are taking care of him. Um, and so and even like some of the, the physicians, while they were very knowledgeable in their area, obviously weren't experts in my son and I felt like I was just like beating my head against the wall, just being like, please listen to me, listen to me, listen to me. And that that NICU neuro ICU, excuse me, Susan came out and I'm like, listen. And I ended up having to like, you know, run everything. But then once my kiddo left the NICU and he was getting better, I couldn't turn that off. So, like, I saw every doctor's appointment or, um, you know, hospitalization as, like, I got to don this armor and I got to fight every cent. And so I think that that made it difficult for me to, like, recognize when people were just trying to help. I probably came off as like a crazy mom, you know, uh, which I know having worked in hospital spaces is like, is a thing, you know, like we judge people, especially people who are advocating but often seem annoying or overbearing, um, as negative. And we're not seeing the fact that this is just armor because they've they've battled for a long time.

Nancy
Yeah, PTSD. Yeah. I mean, I mean, you, you know, your baby, which is your pride and joy, had to experience things that you could make better for him. And, um, after you survived that battle, you're worried that everything else after that would be a battle, too. So it makes sense. Yeah. I mean, you want to protect him. You want to keep him safe. You want him to thrive. And so that's what you should do. And that's not crazy, mom. That's a mom. I don't know, that's what you should have been doing.

Susan
Yeah, it was pretty crazy, but, um, you know, so I think this idea of, like, maybe it's just about recognizing when an when armor is useful and when it isn't. Like when it's serving you and when it is hindering you from doing what you need to do. So, like when you were talking about being in these spaces and being confident because you needed to believe in yourself for all of these people in power to believe in you. Like that, armor is serving you well. But then when you're talking to your best friend, it's time to take it off. Like, you don't need that anymore, right? Um, and I think that that word armor really makes sense, right? Because nobody except like, clones and Star Wars wear armor all the time, right? Right. You know. Um. Yeah. Is there any other place where you feel like you have to feel or use armor? Is work the only the only place?

Nancy
Um, no. There's lots of places you have to use it. Um, um, you know, you know, um, I have used it, uh, I mean, I think it's part of me now. I can't say I take it off. The only time I think if I were to take it off would be when I'm going to bed. Mhm. But I'm always like on. Mhm. Um, and the reason why I'm always on is I don't know, it's just something that's become second nature to me. Yeah. Um, I think in personal relationships it can, you know, filter in and, and that's potentially where it could be, um, a little, a little, a lot of maybe a little, a lot. Um, but, um, I think that I'm learning. I've learned how to navigate that better. Um. But I think it's something that resonates with it, resonates with me and continues with me in all the things I do and keep looking up because I'm thinking, yeah, um, but yeah, um, I think it's been beneficial. Like, um, so similar to you as being a great mom protecting your son. I mean, I definitely used it when my son was in school. Um, you know, I those teacher meetings, I was on it, and, um, you know, I know my son has ADHD, so it was, you know, uh, I still wanted him to be challenged. I didn't want there to be a case where he, because he has ADHD, that we should make things easier for him. And I was like, no, it needs to be the same curriculum. He can do it. It just takes them a little longer because he has to focus. But um, so because I wanted to give him that work ethic. Right. So, um, I, I find it so in those ways, I was good at advocating for him. So I think it's and as a mother, that's what we do. We advocate for our kids. Um, so I was that same mom as you just explained. You know, you were being a great mom. I feel like, you know, I was doing the best to be a great mom, too. Um, I hope I am.

Susan
Yeah, I imagine, I imagine, I imagine you are, but, um, I'll leave that to your kiddos to.

Nancy
That's my one insecurity. He tells me I'm great, but I still, like, I could have done this. I could have done that. But that's just, you know, mom guilt.

Susan
Yeah. Yeah. Always and forever. Yeah. Um. Oh, gosh. I had a thought, and it has escaped me. Um hmm. So. If you could like. So I'm thinking about, you know, this sort of bias that health care providers and I imagine teachers have too, of like, the overbearing parent or the overbearing, you know, family member of the patient. Is it is it do we do we battle that just by sort of acknowledging that this armor was put on for a reason? Like, would it be helpful for me to just say, like, hey, I may kind of come off, or I may react more than I'd like to because I've been through a lot.

Nancy
I don't know if it needs to be on you or the health care provider to understand that that's the case. Yeah, I think it's not on you. Like so this makes me think of something you said earlier. Um, when, um, when in a situation where you are feeling. You have your armor of confidence and, um, someone is not understanding that it is not on you to to defend it. And I think it's the same as a parent of a child. It's not for you to defend why you're why you're feeling protective of your child. It should be on the health care provider to understand that these people, meaning your humans, that you're working with, the families that you're coming into work, have had a lived experience before they met you. And to ask. I, you know, and they know their medical history in the chart. So they know that what you've gone through. So they should come into the space with. I understand that you've gone through a lot with your son. I'm here to talk to you about what my suggestions are, and I acknowledge that you've been through a lot. I think that should be the assumption versus us having to prove ourselves. So I don't walk into a space in any meeting or anything else like, you know, I have this confidence because I had to go through all this stuff and explain myself. It it's it is what it is. I this is how I'm showing up. And in a, in a healthcare setting, if someone has bias towards you or not, you, you but you as a person because you are the person is very protective of their child, that should be expected. Yeah, it should be expected. So I think it it should be more so the person walking into the into your space because it's your you're in the room with, with your family, explain themselves saying this is I've read the medical chart. I know what you've what you've had to experience with your child's health care. And I'm here to help you. And your response could be, you know, I'm hoping that I could build that trust with you. Because right now I'm not very trusting.

Susan
Mhm. Yeah. And I don't think we do a good job like at now I'm putting on my PA physician assistant educator hat. Like I don't know that we do a good job with teaching that. I mean we try but like how do you, how do you teach it until you've gone through it. Because I feel like it's such it's so ingrained in the culture. Mhm. Um I think both and I'm going to put like medicine healthcare providers and teachers together because I have lived both. Mhm. You know that like we, we have a hard time doing this with our students. We have a hard time doing this with like colleagues. Mhm. Um and I think it's about, it's about giving other people grace and then also giving yourself grace like you said that you don't you shouldn't have to explain it. Right. But I feel like I have to explain it or or I'm going to be treated worse, you know.

Nancy
Right. And, you know, my mom had this saying, and I this is something that I use all the time. You get more with honey than vinegar. Mhm. And, um, I was the vinegar girl of the walk in like just sour everything like, you know. And I was like what am I getting what I need. You know saying this to myself. And I realized, well if I come in sour I'm not going to. So, um, in the situations that I've been in now where anything having to do with my son's education or I'm very like, I wait to see what the person is coming to the table with, and then I'm very pleasant. Obviously, I'm a nice person. I try to be and I live my life like that, but at the same time I just lay in wait and see what what will present itself. But if I feel that there's any disrespect or condescension or any type of talk that isn't pleasant, either to me or to anyone else, I. Then my confidence comes out very clearly. Um, but I think that one of the things that we all suffer from is egos and confidence is not it's they're not the same. Yes. So, um, ego is I'm the best thing since sliced bread. And anything I say is, you know, I turn water into wine like I'm, you know, Jesus Christ himself, and I can do no wrong. Well, that's not true. So, um, I think confidence is also knowing that, you know, you can be wrong. And if you're wrong, be accountable. Um, um, so to back to what you're saying about, you know, how it is to do that in a, in as a parent and as in those settings. It's it's definitely just to understand those differences.

Susan
Yeah. Yes. Ego versus confidence. And I think it's that I keep coming back to this definition of confidence as firm trust. But trust has to be earned. And it does. And like you can't just say I trust myself completely with all things because that's not really trust. That's just delusion.

Nancy
Yeah, that's conceitedness right. You're conceited. Like I can do no wrong. Okay, have fun with that. Yeah, yeah.

Susan
So what have you seen? I'm curious. I don't know if this will where this will go, but what have you seen in terms of how confidently armored women, and particularly if you're if you're able to speak about it, other confidently armored black women that you work with. Like how have how how are we changing things? What are what are what are the differences that you're seeing, if, if any? Because for a lot of times, like, you know, we weren't welcome in these spaces, we were, you know, quieted if we were let in at all. Right. So how has this how has this like really not just on like an individual scale, but like on a broader scale in the meetings you're, you're attending and these different spaces, like, what are you seeing.

Nancy
Well, so I'm laughing because, um, I'm not sure if you like. So black women specifically. And this is not a stereotype. This is a fact. We're very facially expressive. So we're always making like, you know, looking at each other. I don't know if you've seen the, the memes about, like, two black women having conversations with each other, each other, and they're just staring at each other and making like. And then they know exactly what they're saying to each other. Um, so seeing that, I mean, it's comforting to see that in meetings when I see when I'm in there with other black women, like, we're all like having the same like, oh, wow. Oh, you know, we're all very expressive. So that's good. At the same time, it's not good because, you know, we have no poker faces. So, um, I have to say. No two people are the same. And one of the things that I one thing I have seen and have admired is in professional spaces where I'm in the meeting, like with Kat, for example, um, you know, and because I'm friends with her outside of work and I know her as a person, um, you know, we're typically on the same page with a lot of things, and there's some things we're not on the same page with, and it's completely fine. Yeah. And it's like, oh, you know, we respect each other enough to know, like, okay. And, you know, that's how I feel about you and that's how I feel with, you know, the other women, other powerful women that I work with is that it's fine. It's not it's not a big hiccup. Yeah. So I like that having more women at the table where we can agree to disagree. And it's. And we move on. We don't just hold on and harbor it. Um, so I think that's something that was a stereotype of women in power. And I think that's a stereotype that needs to be dismantled, because that's not the case in many cases. Yeah, yeah.

Susan
This idea that women need to compete and and and need to agree.

Nancy
We've been brought up like crabs in a barrel when it comes to professional work. Um, that there can only be one. Like. That's ridiculous. There's not one man. Yep. So, like, why? You know, and it's not a competition. It should be us highlighting and building each other up.

Susan
Yeah. Yes. I'm really proud that our, uh, residential team is currently all women. And I say that proudly because, you know, that was not the case for most of human history. That an that an entire, you know, graduate professional program is run by all women and, you know, no shade on on my male, you know, colleagues, but you can feel it. Yeah. You know, you just feel it. And and I think that, um, I almost wonder if women are more. And this is maybe a stereotype, I don't know, but, like, I feel like I'm there's there's space for more gray in conversations. There's space for more, um, not just like task, task, task, but it's like, let's talk about let's unpack this a little bit more. I feel like when I'm in meetings with, um, with, you know, people in, in leadership positions and particularly men, like, they're not going there. They don't want to talk about gray. It's like KPIs and black and white and like all these things. And I think that there's a place for that. Right? Like, we can't just talk about our feelings and opinions like, ad nauseum because we all have a lot of them. And we can talk a lot, right, in academia. But I do feel like there's more room for nuance and gray and like you said about, you know, you and Kathryn Reed, who's a co-founder of Cupid, um, and a, an assistant professor in the Department of PA Studies that you're you're able to disagree and still respect one another and still come to a solution at the end of it that gives space for that. Whereas I feel like when you've got folks who really rely on their ego rather than confidence, absolutely. There's no space for that. It's like, you must agree with me or else, right? You're not on my side. You're an enemy. You're someone to be smooshed.

Nancy
Right. They'll beat you down with their opinion. And just until somebody concedes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Susan
Ah. I am. So I'm trying to think about how this translates into like our daily, our daily lives. Right. Like, what can we do as women who have found their confidence to foster that in, in other women. Um, to maybe hold those those folks who have not found that grounded confidence in themselves like a little bit accountable or at least shed light. Um, is it our place to do that, is it not? What are your thoughts about all of that?

Susan
I think if if, you know, it depends on how comfortable you are with people like, um, I think it's one thing that I've, I try to do is compliment when I see something going, well, like, I really appreciate that you did this. I like how you did that. And I think that it helps maybe identify something that maybe someone hasn't thought about themselves. Yeah. Um, so just like, oh, you know, maybe it it makes the person go, oh, I didn't think this person noticed, but they did. So by doing that, it it it pulls out like, you know, I do this with my team a lot. And, you know, I'm very thankful. I say thank you too much, but I'm. I'm very thankful. Um, but I try to pull out the the threads that I think need to be built, and I try to build on that, so I will I'll table it later and say, okay, I like how you organize this meeting and you provided this, this, this information. And then the next meeting, if they I'll see that they'll implement what I've asked. So then I'll say thank you for implementing what we talked about. I'm glad you picked up on that. But because I want to teach them how to do it for themselves. Yeah. Um, with other colleagues are like our contemporaries, I would definitely say, appreciating what they're doing, um, and letting them know that what they're doing is valuable and is of value and that we see it. Yeah, I think that that helps contextualize some of the work that we do. And it helps. Like, I love that you're doing this. This is great. I mean, I first of all, I've told you a hundred times about Cupid. I love Cupid, and this is why I've, you know, talked about you and shared your, um, the Cupid platform with my department and so on. And I've literally been screaming about Cupid to all the, all the departments as well. Why? Because it's good work and you put a lot of work into it, and you deserve all the recognition that you have for it. And this is, you know, this is me telling you, keep doing what you're doing and, and keep bringing light to having these conversations, because if we don't talk about it, we can't work on things. And if we can't work on things, we're going to be where are we going to be stuck? Yeah. Stuck or going back in time, which no one's doing. So, you know, so it's important to have these conversations. It's it's important to be uncomfortable. Yeah. You know, um, it's pushing like, this is this is not easy for me. Like, you know, I So two things I, you know, hate being on camera. And, um, I get nervous whenever I'm talking. So I pushed myself to become comfortable with that. Right. So it's okay to be uncomfortable. You just have to hone that skill. Whatever works for you.

Susan
Yeah. What have we missed?

Nancy
In our conversation? Oh, um. We talked about trust, humility. Humility, I think is important, too. Um, and that's something that I've struggled with, um, realizing. No, this is not your forte.

Susan
Um, so can you say more about that?

Nancy
So, you know, I, you know, transitioning to, uh, more scholarship and scholarly work and academia. You do that. Right? So that's something I've had to work on. Like, you know, my methodology and my research and, you know, being a quantitative researcher to a mixed methods researcher. So realizing I don't know enough to do that successfully. So maybe I should take a class. So I took a class and then I was like, let me take another class. So I'm taking another class and I'm doing these things, you know, on top of everything else that I'm doing. Um, because it's okay to know that you don't are not good at this or don't know enough about that. So let's learn about it. So being realizing that, you know, you're not the sometimes you're not driving the ship, you're just a passenger on your own ship. Mhm. Yes.

Susan
Yeah. We um I, we implemented this year in the PA program, uh six values. And the reason that I did this was because I found that people, younger people don't, they don't like rules for rules sake. We could get into a whole conversation about that. But I was like, but I was like, how do I how do I approach this? And I was like, let's take it down to values because I don't want. And it came up in professionalism, right. And it's like, you know, what is professionalism? How do you show up as a professional? And so I was like, all right, what do I really care about in my professional colleagues? And it really I distilled it down to these six values. Um. Integrity, accountability, reliability, uh, humility, curiosity and generosity.

Nancy
Um, that's so great.

Susan
Thank you. Very good. I spent way too long thinking about them. I went on, like, a real deep dive one day until, like, 11:00 in my office. If you ever get, like, just, like, super focused on something and you're like, it's like, six hours later and like, Eureka. Yeah, yeah, that was that was this moment for me. So. But the humility when I try to explain to students, it's like it's about getting it right, not being right. Right. And. Yeah. And that, I think, is where in Brene Brown's, you know, definition of confidence that groundedness comes from. It's grounded in knowing what you don't know in doing the work of getting it right. Yeah. So that you can present what you know, what your truth is, not just because you believe it and you are. You have these blinders up, but because you have tested it, you have questioned it, and you have built something around it.

Nancy
Absolutely. I think that makes the difference between grounded confidence and faking it till you make it type of thought process because. Fake it till you make it doesn't really work. People realize very quickly you don't know what you're talking about or what you're doing. Um, so it's okay to say. And that's back to the humility. I, you know, I don't feel comfortable or I don't know how to do this, I need help. Yeah. And, um, that grounded Confidence is part of that humility and that vulnerability. So yeah, yeah, I definitely agree,

Susan
Woof when you said, um, I struggle with humility and like learning about, you know, your methodology. I was thinking about coming into this role as program director, and I was like in, you know, in the middle of the Ed program at Pitt, which is amazing. It's the, um, doctorate of education. And, you know, they have a really strong, like, social justice perspective. And I'm like, all for it. I was like, coming into this program, I'm like, all right, we got to change everything. And like, you know, I know what I'm talking about. And there were people in the program who'd been there for a long time that were like, um, okay. Yeah. Um, not because they didn't like the the spirit behind what I was trying to do, but because they, they understood the nuances of the way that that program had been run and all of these things, you know, before me. And I'm really grateful that I have a team that is very gracious and basically let me try, let me. I don't want to call it fail, but fail in a certain way to then build that grounded confidence. And I just had a colleague a few days ago who told me, um, you know, I've really seen you grown as a leader over the last year. Like, last year was really hard. It was really hard. Yeah. And it was tough. Oh, yes. And I know a little bit. Yeah. A little bit of what you shared with me, you know, more than a little, but. Yeah. And, um, and it's like you were saying about pulling out that thread, like I've started to I've, I've gone from this sort of. I know everything, not, I know everything, but I know better than you who have been living in this sort of dark ages of this program, and not that I would ever even admit that I thought that way to myself until now. But like, looking back, I'm like, I probably came off as pretty arrogant and they probably had every right to be frustrated with me, But I think because in part because it was a all women team, they were actually really kind and they like gave me that space to mess it up. Yeah. So that I could learn.

Nancy
That's awesome. Yeah, I mean that I mean, that's great. I mean, sometimes that's not the case, right? So sometimes you're around women. I've been in spaces in my past, uh, institution where you're on women that are looking for you to fail and stumble. Um, and it's very nice to be in a space where that's not the case any longer.

Susan
Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I will never leave. They'll have to drag me out. Yeah.

Nancy
Because well, then we'll all be emeritus together.

Susan
There you go. Yes yes yes, yes. Yeah. I, um yeah. So I think that's the other thing that we can do, right? Is, is even if we know we're right, is giving the space to let people learn that for themselves.

Nancy
Learn the hard way. I mean, there's many a case, I have to tell you, many a case where I've seen. I'm like, okay, you'll see, you'll find out soon enough. And I just watch and I just like, you know, like a Cheshire cat. I'm like. I'm like, I told you, right? And then, you know, I don't rub it in people's faces because I could, but I don't. Yeah. Um, but I, you know, and there have been times where that's been me, where I'm wanting to do something and someone else has advised not to. And I did it and and didn't work out. And they were, you know, gave me grace to say, you know, I told you, but that's okay, right? Yeah. So it's not about, you know, rubbing things in people's faces. Unless you don't like the person, then it feels good. But, um, but then but then you're like, huh? You know?

Susan
Yeah, yeah. I mean, we're human, right? Like we're talking about humility. Yeah, yeah. All of these, like, valiant things, but, like, we're also just human with all of the human things. Yeah, of course we were.

Nancy
I'm, I'm we're all flawed. Yeah. So it's okay.

Susan
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's. I think that's that's hard. That's where I am right now. Where I've done the the failing. I've failed valiantly. Valiantly. Um, I'm willing to continue to fail because I believe that's the only way we grow. Yeah, but but letting other people fail is where I am. Um, is where I am right now. And and and also just recognizing that I might be thinking I'm letting people fail, but actually, I just might be wrong. You know what I mean?

Nancy
You may not be wrong. You're giving advice. It's up to the person or people to take up that advice. And if they choose not to and, and find, you know, forge their own path, it may work, it may not. Right. But you've done your due diligence. You've provided the the assistance that you can do right. And it's everyone has to figure them. You know, that's parenting, right? Right. You know, I tell my child all the time, don't do this. This is what's going to happen. He doesn't listen to me and then he doesn't. And oh, I should have listened to you. Yeah, I know, because I've been there. Yeah, but, I mean, it's for him to figure it out. Um, and I think there's a reason why kids do the things that they do. And I think there's the reason why our colleagues and our contemporaries do the things that they do, because it's sometimes it's it's needed for them to figure it out for themselves. Yeah. And and that's him calling my son.

Susan
His ears were burning.

Nancy
I know, I'll call him back. Sorry. No. He can get through. Even though I put Do Not Disturb. He's the person that can get through. I mean, of course. Understandably so. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Susan
All right, so I'm gonna I'm going to work on my humility a little bit. I think it's grown. My humility has grown over the last year. Um, and I'm going to give those people grace. Those people? That sounds terrible. I'm going to give folks grace that they have to learn and try and fail. Just as I was given that grace to learn and try and fail. because that's how we grow. And there's value in the failing. Yeah. Gosh, I wish my students would get that. Don't you wish their students would get that? There is so much value in failing and they just don't they don't get it.

Nancy
They do not. But as we grow in in your to your, um, your favorite. Is it an author?

Susan
Brenee Brown? Okay. Yeah. She's an author. She's a social psychologist. Researcher.

Nancy
Got it. So as you're grounded, confidence grows. So does your humility. Your capacity for humility. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Because you're able to say, oh, because your ego's out of it once you're. If you're. That's what I appreciate about about having confidence when I have a new term grounded confidence. Thanks. Brene Brown. Um, plug to you. Um. Is that. I'm okay. It's okay for me to be wrong. And I'm like, oh, maybe I was wrong on that. And it's not my ego where I'm like deeply hurt. Like before I would like crumble. Like, oh my God, you know, it was mortifying. Now I'm like, oh, I was wrong. Okay.

Susan
Yeah, yeah. When you did that, I like I felt that crush in my chest, like right under your sternum. You're like, you just want to, like, crumple in. It's just like, you just want to cave your whole body, like, right here. That's it, that's it. That's right there. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so we're gonna look, I mean, I'm even sitting that way.

Nancy
Yeah. Sit like this. But then, you know, I have to. I don't have my pillow. But anyway.

Susan
Oh, well, thank you so much for taking time this morning to be here. Um, I learn from you every time we talk, but especially today. Like, this was so sweet. Thank you. This is what I needed. Um. And, yeah, I really appreciate you.

Nancy
Thank you. Thanks for having me. This was a great conversation. I almost forgot we were talking on a podcast.

Susan
Same. So. So it was great. It was good. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. All right. We did it. Yay!

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♪ I still have stories to tell ♪ ♪ I feel ♪ ♪ I still have stories to tell ♪