Susan:
Welcome to Who We Are Inside,

Susan:
a Cupid podcast.

Susan:
I'm so glad you're here.

Susan:
Welcome to Who We Are Inside,

Susan:
a Cupid podcast.

Susan:
Today I have with me Sarah Ahmad.

Susan:
Sarah is a recent graduate from the on-campus physician assistant program at the University of Pittsburgh,

Susan:
which happens to be my program.

Susan:
And as a first-generation low-income student,

Susan:
her passion for healthcare is rooted in both personal and family experiences.

Susan:
Watching her parents struggle with finances and limited health literacy inspired her to advocate for equity both in healthcare and education and is what led her to the PA profession.

Susan:
And I'm hoping our program specifically.

Susan:
She became involved in PA Students Promoting Diversity and Inclusion,

Susan:
which is a student group also known as PAS PDI.

Susan:
And she founded the South Asian Physician Assistant Network,

Susan:
or SAPAN,

Susan:
which is an organization that aims to support South Asian patients and empowers marginalized students.

Susan:
Sarah,

Susan:
welcome.

Sarah:
Thank you.

Sarah:
Thank you for having me here.

Susan:
Yeah.

Susan:
And you can call me Susan now.

Sarah:
Yes,

Sarah:
I can.

Sarah:
Is that weird?

Susan:
Does it feel weird?

Sarah:
Kind of.

Susan:
She had to call me Dr.

Susan:
Graf until like last week,

Susan:
right?

Sarah:
Because I feel like I'm not respecting your title and all the work that you put in.

Susan:
It's fine.

Susan:
Please call me Susan.

Susan:
So I probably will be taking some students in the ICU when I come back clinically because they go to McGee and I will sometimes be there at McGee.

Susan:
And that happened to me when I started practicing clinically when I first took the job at Pitt.

Susan:
And I remember that the students would come in and they'd be like,

Susan:
okay,

Susan:
Dr.

Susan:
Graff,

Susan:
I saw this patient.

Susan:
Let me present it to you.

Susan:
And my attendings and the nurses and the APPs would give me such shit.

Susan:
They'd be like,

Susan:
hey,

Susan:
Dr.

Susan:
Graff.

Susan:
Hey,

Susan:
Dr.

Susan:
Graff,

Susan:
we need this.

Susan:
Dr.

Susan:
Graff,

Susan:
paging Dr.

Susan:
Graff.

Susan:
And I'm like,

Susan:
oh,

Susan:
my gosh,

Susan:
I hate all of you.

Susan:
No,

Susan:
thank you.

Susan:
So please just call me Susan.

Susan:
And I would tell the students,

Susan:
I'm like,

Susan:
listen,

Susan:
this is Vegas.

Susan:
What happens here stays here.

Susan:
You need to call me Susan.

Susan:
I can be Dr.

Susan:
Graff on Monday at Murdoch.

Susan:
Okay,

Susan:
so hi.

Sarah:
Hello.

Sarah:
Again,

Sarah:
thanks for having me here.

Sarah:
I'm really excited.

Susan:
Oh,

Susan:
it's a pleasure.

Susan:
So I love your one thing,

Susan:
which I just want to share before we get started,

Susan:
which is really,

Susan:
as you describe it,

Susan:
the challenges of being a first-generation low-income student and the many roles that you and others have to juggle outside of academics.

Susan:
And I thought,

Susan:
you know,

Susan:
you said in your email that if you have time,

Susan:
you'd like to talk about kind of how this plays out for you specifically as a South Asian person.

Susan:
But I think that's a really interesting place to start if you don't mind.

Susan:
And so what you talked about was sort of the,

Susan:
the,

Susan:
your experience as a way of kind of teasing apart or demystifying this idea of the model minority myth.

Susan:
So do you want to start us there?

Susan:
Like,

Susan:
what is a model minority?

Susan:
Because I feel like that's so interesting and I really think kind of colors your entire experience.

Susan:
So,

Susan:
yeah.

Sarah:
No,

Sarah:
for sure.

Sarah:
Thanks for asking that.

Sarah:
So to me,

Sarah:
a model minority,

Sarah:
the whole concept is you have this one race,

Sarah:
ethnicity,

Sarah:
and they seem to have done very well for themselves in America especially.

Sarah:
You know,

Sarah:
like they've defeated all odds despite the fact that most of them came as immigrants originally.

Sarah:
And now they've achieved very high educational statuses and working really good paying jobs,

Sarah:
et cetera.

Sarah:
And a lot of people,

Sarah:
including people from said racial ethnic group themselves,

Sarah:
now kind of look at them as,

Sarah:
look,

Sarah:
if they can do it,

Sarah:
everybody else can sort of do it.

Sarah:
And,

Sarah:
you know,

Sarah:
I think it's one thing to celebrate the achievements of said group.

Sarah:
Like for me personally,

Sarah:
I feel like a lot of South Asians,

Sarah:
they're in medicine,

Sarah:
their families are doctors,

Sarah:
et cetera.

Sarah:
That is something that can definitely be celebrated.

Sarah:
But at times,

Sarah:
I feel like it's not fully inclusive to the same people from that same community who haven't had that exact experience.

Sarah:
So me and my friends,

Sarah:
we've all had that concern where we feel like we're not really fully represented on these larger platforms.

Sarah:
Our parents aren't doctors.

Sarah:
They're not engineers.

Sarah:
They're not lawyers.

Sarah:
But we're never really fully part of that conversation.

Sarah:
And I just think it's not fully representative of all of our South Asian community.

Sarah:
Yeah.

Susan:
Yeah,

Susan:
so I think it's first it's important to also talk about where do you identify from?

Susan:
Like,

Susan:
where is your family from?

Susan:
Yeah,

Sarah:
so my family is specifically from Pakistan,

Sarah:
Lahore,

Sarah:
Pakistan.

Sarah:
So it's the biggest city in Lahore,

Sarah:
very,

Sarah:
very urban.

Sarah:
But they grew up,

Sarah:
you know,

Sarah:
pretty low income in Pakistan themselves and immigrated to America.

Sarah:
And I just feel like they never really got to that high financial standing that a lot of other people,

Sarah:
again,

Sarah:
in the South Asian community have gotten to.

Sarah:
But yeah,

Sarah:
Lahore is where my family is from.

Sarah:
in Pakistan specifically.

Susan:
Awesome.

Susan:
You know,

Susan:
I,

Susan:
so it's interesting because I've had a couple folks who I've interviewed who've talked specifically about this and I'm curious,

Susan:
you know,

Susan:
all of them had examples of times when the kind of assumptions around this idea of a model minority,

Susan:
and I think it's fair to say that it's generally,

Susan:
I think,

Susan:
ascribed to South Asians,

Susan:
but also East Asians as well,

Susan:
kind of this idea that,

Susan:
you know,

Susan:
you must be smart,

Susan:
you must be a doctor or a lawyer.

Susan:
And some of those are kind of stereotypes from external kind of communities.

Susan:
And then some are just expectations of families too.

Susan:
I mean,

Susan:
I know Karthik specifically talked about how like everyone in his family is a doctor or a lawyer.

Susan:
And so the fact that he was a PT,

Susan:
a physical therapist was actually pretty weird.

Susan:
So how what was that like growing up?

Susan:
Like how did that sort of impact your identity and the way that you engage with the world?

Sarah:
Yeah.

Sarah:
So at first I didn't even notice that this was a thing because I'm from New York City,

Sarah:
which I love to mention that.

Sarah:
But I feel like a lot of the South Asian peers that I met in New York,

Sarah:
we all have this similar story where,

Sarah:
you know,

Sarah:
our moms are babysitters,

Sarah:
our dads are taxi drivers or Uber drivers or they work at the 7-Eleven or the gas station.

Sarah:
So I was kind of in this bubble of people in this from the same background as me,

Sarah:
where we have the same story of,

Sarah:
you know,

Sarah:
first generation,

Sarah:
low income,

Sarah:
have to work very,

Sarah:
very hard to give back to our parents one day.

Sarah:
And then it wasn't until I went to college.

Sarah:
And again,

Sarah:
in my head,

Sarah:
I'm just assuming that,

Sarah:
you know,

Sarah:
it was naive of me,

Sarah:
but I just thought that we were all kind of from the same background.

Sarah:
And then I remember I had this very close friend and one day we're just talking and she was just mentioning how her dad is able to pay her tuition in straight cash.

Sarah:
You know,

Sarah:
like they don't need to do payment plans or anything like that.

Sarah:
And I was like,

Sarah:
oh,

Sarah:
that's wow.

Sarah:
Like,

Sarah:
that's really cool.

Sarah:
Like I didn't,

Sarah:
you know,

Sarah:
my parents can't.

Sarah:
I'm partially taking out some loans.

Sarah:
And she just said without even thinking,

Sarah:
well,

Sarah:
I just feel like if your parents can't afford to pay for your tuition,

Sarah:
then that means parents probably didn't plan right when they were thinking of coming to America.

Sarah:
And it just,

Sarah:
I don't know it just kind of took me aback because I'm very open about my background you know like I think that's a huge part of my identity like being first gen being low income like really having to work to one day give back to my family so that was the start of it all and then progressing onwards I saw even more so that somehow and a lot of people that I know who are interested in medicine yeah their parents are doctors their parents are or at least something in the health care field.

Sarah:
And it just,

Sarah:
it just felt very,

Sarah:
I was very distraught.

Sarah:
I was like,

Sarah:
do I belong here?

Sarah:
Am I not the right type of South Asian?

Sarah:
I,

Sarah:
I feel like I lost that sense of safety and community that I had with my friends back home in the city.

Sarah:
So,

Susan:
yeah.

Susan:
Can you tell us a little bit about your story growing up?

Susan:
I mean,

Susan:
I am not from New York.

Susan:
I'm from Pittsburgh.

Susan:
This is not a big city.

Susan:
nor is it a very diverse city um at least in the same way that New York is I don't think many cities probably are but um yeah tell it what was it like growing up in New York?

Sarah:
just just incredible I think that's a huge part of why I am the way that I am I feel like I've met so many people not even outside of the South Asian community I just feel like I've met so many people who really really care about getting to know other people's cultures other people's backgrounds backgrounds I feel like um being a native New Yorker we also really pride ourselves on a little similar to being first-gen low-income like we are very hard workers like I feel like a lot of native New Yorkers they surround themselves in the sense of people who understand struggle right so that's something that I've always kind of carried with me I feel like even now there's a lot of discourse with native New Yorkers about how the city's becoming so unaffordable for us and that's something that's why I feel so closely connected to

Sarah:
back home because a lot of us in the city are low income.

Sarah:
A lot of us are immigrants,

Sarah:
you know,

Sarah:
it's just such a beautiful melting pot.

Sarah:
And people just have so many incredible stories that I just,

Sarah:
I would love to honor,

Sarah:
you know,

Sarah:
and I feel like I'm partially doing that here today.

Sarah:
Yeah,

Susan:
absolutely.

Susan:
Absolutely.

Susan:
So you are growing up in New York.

Susan:
And what do your parents do?

Sarah:
So my dad actually had a his own business prior where he would be like in photography and printmaking.

Sarah:
Unfortunately,

Sarah:
that business did not end up working out.

Sarah:
So he had to,

Sarah:
you know,

Sarah:
close it down.

Sarah:
So my dad is now kind of just hopping around different jobs.

Sarah:
He tried out trucking for a bit and then he realized it really wasn't for him.

Sarah:
So he decided to go through with a real estate course,

Sarah:
sorry,

Sarah:
a licensing course for insurance policies.

Sarah:
So he's now trying to somehow find a way to work that in.

Sarah:
But while he's waiting for that to fully kick up.

Sarah:
He still is on the road trucking and stuff.

Sarah:
So it's hard being away from my dad for a while.

Sarah:
And my mom used to babysit,

Sarah:
but my mom has some health problems.

Sarah:
So my mom's like,

Sarah:
I'm just going to stay home.

Sarah:
My mom's a housewife now,

Sarah:
but she used to babysit.

Sarah:
Yeah. Speaker 1: Yeah.

Susan:
Do you have any siblings?

Susan:
Yeah, Speaker 1: I do.

Sarah:
I do.

Sarah:
I have two sisters.

Sarah:
I'm the middle sister.

Sarah:
My oldest is in med school at Cornell in the city.

Sarah:
And my youngest sister is still in college.

Sarah:
She's business school in the city.

Sarah:
So she's going into finance.

Sarah:
All right.

Sarah:
Okay.

Sarah:
Away from the healthcare industry.

Sarah:
Yeah.

Susan:
So two healthcare providers and one business person.

Susan:
Yes.

Sarah:
I think that's a nice,

Susan:
that's a nice mix.

Sarah:
Yes.

Sarah:
We told her,

Sarah:
we were like,

Sarah:
Hey girl,

Sarah:
if you don't see yourself doing medicine,

Sarah:
just don't do it.

Susan:
Yeah.

Sarah:
But I still love medicine.

Sarah:
I don't want that to give anyone the wrong idea,

Sarah:
but,

Susan:
um,

Susan:
I'm laughing because so I also have two sisters.

Susan:
Um,

Susan:
I'm the oldest,

Susan:
but my,

Susan:
so I'm a PA,

Susan:
my youngest sister is a physician um and my middle sister is um she majored in political science and she works for the state department so i think like there's there's always got to be one that's like no to medicine i'm good wow no that's so

Sarah:
but um but no it's it's the best um or and so they're back they're also still in New York so then when you go home you'll be there too yeah oh yeah I thought you meant your sisters but yes yeah um they're still in New York so when I go home I'm gonna you know it's gonna be nice to finally be back with my family yeah very excited oh my gosh that's amazing um so you grew up in New York um you had this beautiful vibrant community that prided itself on the value of kind of good work ethic and looking

Susan:
out for one another over particular types of jobs or careers,

Susan:
right?

Susan:
And then you go to college and you're like,

Susan:
oh,

Susan:
this is totally different.

Susan:
When did you know that you wanted to be a PA and how did your background kind of influence the way that you approach that?

Sarah:
Yeah.

Sarah:
So again,

Sarah:
I was always interested in healthcare and medicine,

Sarah:
Again,

Sarah:
because of how my family kind of grew up,

Sarah:
I really just saw how my parents didn't really care about their health,

Sarah:
not because they didn't want to care,

Sarah:
but I just don't think it was a priority for them.

Sarah:
And again,

Sarah:
the low health literacy aspect,

Sarah:
too.

Sarah:
So I was very set on pre-med because,

Sarah:
again,

Sarah:
in the South Asian community,

Sarah:
it's like doctor,

Sarah:
lawyer,

Sarah:
engineer because those are the most stable career paths.

Sarah:
So I was like,

Sarah:
OK,

Sarah:
sure,

Sarah:
I'm pre-med.

Sarah:
And first freshman year of college,

Sarah:
I remember I was looking at my outline.

Sarah:
I was like,

Sarah:
oh,

Sarah:
I have to take all these biology classes.

Sarah:
I have to take all of these physics classes.

Sarah:
Do I really want to do this?

Sarah:
But I really want to be a provider.

Sarah:
Like,

Sarah:
that's what I want to do.

Sarah:
You know,

Sarah:
I want to have some autonomy with my patients and,

Sarah:
like,

Sarah:
maintain a treatment plan,

Sarah:
things like that.

Sarah:
So I was always familiar with the PA path in high school,

Sarah:
but I just never really took it too seriously until I met with an advisor.

Sarah:
And she kind of told me that,

Sarah:
no,

Sarah:
PAs actually are very,

Sarah:
very crucial to the workforce.

Sarah:
They can have that same autonomy that you're looking for.

Sarah:
It's just a little bit different.

Sarah:
it's a little bit more collaborative with a physician.

Sarah:
So I learned about the PA path and switched my major to health science instead of biology.

Sarah:
I was like,

Sarah:
I'm not taking all that physics.

Sarah:
Like I'm not doing all that.

Susan:
Yes.

Sarah:
So ever since then,

Sarah:
I've just kind of been on,

Sarah:
yeah,

Sarah:
that pre-PA path.

Susan:
Did your older sister try to convince you to go to medical school?

Sarah:
No,

Sarah:
she was,

Sarah:
my sister is just like,

Sarah:
she's so incredibly smart.

Sarah:
And she's always been a very big overachiever,

Sarah:
but she's never kind of talked down on me or tried to convince me otherwise.

Sarah:
She,

Sarah:
again,

Sarah:
raves about PAs.

Sarah:
She's like,

Sarah:
no,

Sarah:
they're so,

Sarah:
so helpful to the workforce.

Sarah:
They really help support physicians.

Sarah:
And the day it's your life,

Sarah:
if you don't think you have the stamina and you don't want to go to school for that long,

Sarah:
don't because it's your life and you should just do whatever is a better fit for you.

Sarah:
So very supportive.

Susan:
Yeah.

Susan:
I asked because I tried to convince my little sister to be a PA.

Susan:
Oh,

Susan:
yeah.

Susan:
And in hindsight,

Susan:
I'm like,

Susan:
why did I do that?

Susan:
She definitely needs to be a doctor.

Susan:
Like she's,

Susan:
you know,

Susan:
she just needs to be the boss.

Susan:
And now she is.

Susan:
She's killing it.

Susan:
So someone like your friend who sort of made this offhand comment about how,

Susan:
you know,

Susan:
your parents or folks like your parents just didn't plan well enough before immigrating or sending you to college,

Susan:
you know,

Susan:
and that's why you're having to take out loans.

Susan:
What would you have wanted her to know?

Sarah:
I think I really just would have wanted her to know that that's not the case for everybody.

Sarah:
Like,

Sarah:
yes,

Sarah:
your family immigrated and they were able to,

Sarah:
you know,

Sarah:
make really well of themselves.

Sarah:
And that's,

Sarah:
again,

Sarah:
of course,

Sarah:
something that should be celebrated.

Sarah:
I think it's so incredible that people are able to do that.

Sarah:
But it's different,

Sarah:
right?

Sarah:
Like your dad had an education.

Sarah:
Your dad had this bachelor's and master's degree.

Sarah:
My parents weren't able to get that in Pakistan.

Sarah:
and like sorry my dad did work really really hard like when he came to America you know like his business was doing really really good he's actually even met with you know humans of New York he even met with him to work with him on how he can like help him publish his book so my dad's business was doing really really good but I was really young when it happened so I don't really know the exact logistics of it.

Sarah:
But,

Sarah:
you know,

Sarah:
after that,

Sarah:
since my dad didn't have a higher education,

Sarah:
like photography and printmaking was like his passion.

Sarah:
So he's like,

Sarah:
where else can I really go from here?

Sarah:
So from then on,

Sarah:
it started where he was like Ubering and then he was like finding other these these other many,

Sarah:
many jobs like trucking and seeing,

Sarah:
oh,

Sarah:
let me get this insurance agent course.

Sarah:
So that's not easy.

Sarah:
You know,

Sarah:
it's not like a it's not a real job to some people as in you know higher education standing but he worked so so hard and I just feel like I feel like I I'm going to say this I do feel like parents like that do work harder than the average person because you just have all of these you're caring for your family you're supporting your family and you're just running around trying to make ends meet and it's not easy like you don't have any time for yourself so I would just want her to know that no it

Sarah:
wasn't bad planning it was things just sometimes don't work out for people and people work really,

Sarah:
really hard still to,

Sarah:
unfortunately they're still where they are,

Sarah:
but yeah.

Susan:
Yeah.

Susan:
Yeah.

Susan:
I think that's a really important point.

Susan:
Um,

Susan:
you know,

Susan:
we think about this idea of like sort of a meritocracy in America,

Susan:
right?

Susan:
Like,

Susan:
well,

Susan:
if you're not in the position that you want to be in,

Susan:
it's just because you didn't work hard enough.

Susan:
Um,

Susan:
and that's such a lie.

Susan:
Like it's just,

Susan:
let's call it what it is.

Susan:
It's a straight up lie.

Susan:
And,

Susan:
you know,

Susan:
I was actually just having this conversation with some folks this morning about this idea of specifically in PA admissions,

Susan:
the idea of distance traveled.

Susan:
Are you familiar with that term?

Susan:
So it was actually started by I don't know if it was started.

Susan:
I can't say that.

Susan:
It was the way that I learned about it was through my research and through the AAMC,

Susan:
the Association of American Medical Colleges.

Susan:
And what it is,

Susan:
it's a numeric way to acknowledge that for someone like you or in your experience to be able to apply to,

Susan:
in their case,

Susan:
medical school,

Susan:
but in my case,

Susan:
PA school,

Susan:
you've had to work a lot harder than many people.

Susan:
And in most applications,

Susan:
there's not really a way to show that,

Susan:
right?

Susan:
And so what they've done actually is,

Susan:
I think it's MCAS,

Susan:
whatever their national application cycle has,

Susan:
there's these metrics that look at things like low socioeconomic status.

Susan:
The applicant had to work in order to contribute to the financial stability of their household.

Susan:
They were on assistance of some kind.

Susan:
And they take all of these sort of self-reported metrics and then come up with a score,

Susan:
like a distance travel score,

Susan:
that then programs can use to consider in their applications.

Susan:
And I think what you were talking about with,

Susan:
you know,

Susan:
how hard your dad worked is really,

Susan:
really critical to that.

Susan:
And I think that we have this idea that,

Susan:
you know,

Susan:
if somebody has a GPA of 3.9,

Susan:
it's because they worked harder than somebody who has a GPA of 3.2.

Susan:
And that may be true for some people,

Susan:
but it's certainly not true for all of them.

Susan:
And I think it's about unraveling this idea that hard work leads to a good life in America because it sure doesn't for many people.

Susan:
And I don't mean to like make light of that,

Susan:
but it's it's I'm laughing because this idea of the American dream just won't die.

Susan:
And it kind of needs to because it's been dead for a really long time.

Sarah:
No,

Sarah:
I'm so glad you said that because for me it's heartbreaking,

Sarah:
but you're so right because even now there's an influx of these immigrants coming in.

Sarah:
And,

Sarah:
yeah,

Sarah:
it's because of this American dream that,

Sarah:
you know,

Sarah:
I'm going to come to America,

Sarah:
there's going to be so much opportunity for me,

Sarah:
and I'm just going to work really,

Sarah:
really hard,

Sarah:
and I'll be stable,

Sarah:
I'll be able to provide for myself and my family.

Sarah:
And it's sometimes not the case for a lot of people.

Sarah:
And I just feel like the distance traveled scenario that you just mentioned,

Sarah:
it's very,

Sarah:
very true for people like my dad.

Sarah:
Because I can't imagine coming to an unfamiliar country,

Sarah:
having to learn the language.

Sarah:
Again,

Sarah:
coming with nothing in your pocket and you're learning how to navigate New York City of all places.

Sarah:
You know,

Sarah:
the most bustling,

Sarah:
really,

Sarah:
really busy city.

Sarah:
And sometimes I can imagine it probably felt like he's just grasping for straws.

Sarah:
But he was doing it.

Sarah:
So I very much appreciate what you said about the American dream thing because I'm like,

Sarah:
guys,

Sarah:
guys,

Sarah:
no.

Susan:
Yeah.

Sarah:
Like,

Sarah:
stop.

Susan:
Yeah.

Susan:
Well,

Susan:
and I think it's a narrative that allows those who are doing well,

Susan:
right,

Susan:
like your friend and her family,

Susan:
to justify their existence over yours.

Susan:
And that's not to say that people do that intentionally or maliciously all the time,

Susan:
although,

Susan:
let's be frank,

Susan:
sometimes they do.

Susan:
But I think that that's something that like,

Susan:
I'm so glad that you're wanting to talk about these issues because I think it's something that especially in sort of the ivory tower that is higher education,

Susan:
we often forget to consider.

Sarah:
No,

Sarah:
for sure.

Sarah:
I think for me also,

Sarah:
because I grew up this way,

Sarah:
it's also made me very mindful of how my own community kind of weaponizes the model minority myth towards others.

Sarah:
Like this whole affirmative action situation.

Sarah:
I feel like people think affirmative action only applies to like black people or like Latino people.

Sarah:
And I'm just like,

Sarah:
guys,

Sarah:
no,

Sarah:
if you look into the history of affirmative action,

Sarah:
it was meant to help all of us.

Sarah:
And,

Sarah:
yeah,

Sarah:
the whole distance travel situation is not taken into consideration for people like that.

Sarah:
It's very much,

Sarah:
oh,

Sarah:
well,

Sarah:
my parents are immigrants.

Sarah:
I was able to get this XYZ GPA.

Sarah:
So why can't they do it?

Sarah:
And it's just I've had very tough conversations with people from my community just kind of saying that that's not OK to weaponize,

Sarah:
again,

Sarah:
the model minority myth.

Sarah:
to point at other communities too,

Sarah:
and within your own community and be like,

Sarah:
well,

Sarah:
my parents did it.

Sarah:
So yours probably just didn't plan hard enough.

Susan:
Right.

Susan:
Yeah.

Susan:
Um,

Susan:
so obviously PA school is expensive.

Susan:
Um,

Susan:
it may get a lot more expensive in that,

Susan:
um,

Susan:
you know,

Susan:
certainly if the,

Susan:
um,

Susan:
provision from the one big beautiful bill act goes through um as it's currently written and um the you know pas are not considered a profession and so therefore the cap on federal loans would be about i think 20 500 annually with a maximum of 100 000 total um that's going to leave a lot of students having to take out private loans um i'm curious I don't want to pry too much into your personal finances,

Susan:
but how does that land for you or what things come up for you as we're thinking about this?

Susan:
I imagine it was already a challenge to navigate PA school from your experience,

Susan:
but thinking about that added layer of complexity that's potentially coming.

Sarah:
No,

Sarah:
for sure.

Sarah:
It was very hard,

Sarah:
even just at baseline,

Sarah:
thinking about all those loans.

Sarah:
I wish I had something to say to future students,

Sarah:
but at this point,

Sarah:
I just don't because I feel like,

Sarah:
yes,

Sarah:
a lot of students are going to end up going the private loan route.

Sarah:
But I've you know,

Sarah:
I've been on Reddit.

Sarah:
I've been on all these forums where people are talking about how that's just not feasible for them.

Sarah:
And they'd rather just not consider a school flat out than consider going the private loan route because of how high the interest rates are,

Sarah:
because they feel like they're going to be stuck in a lifetime of debt.

Sarah:
And again,

Sarah:
I feel like I'm not going to be in that position where I was able to take out all federal loans.

Sarah:
So maybe if I had to take out private loans,

Sarah:
maybe I would have been swayed one way or another,

Sarah:
too.

Sarah:
I remember I was actually even thinking of doing accelerated nursing school,

Sarah:
working as a nurse just to save up as much as I can,

Sarah:
and then applying to PA schools that hopefully I have some form of savings with me just because accelerated nursing school.

Sarah:
I even applied and I even got into some of them.

Sarah:
And I was like,

Sarah:
I'm going to go to the cheapest one.

Sarah:
This is only 15K for the whole program.

Sarah:
So I,

Sarah:
too,

Sarah:
was finding ways to kind of maneuver around this.

Sarah:
But it's just it's just devastating because I know there is going to be some students who are unfortunately just fully deviated away from PA school as a whole because of this.

Sarah:
And it's just it's sad,

Sarah:
really.

Susan:
Yeah.

Susan:
Yeah,

Susan:
I.

Susan:
What,

Susan:
so I'm coming up this as sort of a program director of a PA school.

Susan:
And I think another thing that comes up is like,

Susan:
obviously,

Susan:
we don't get to set the tuition.

Susan:
Spoiler alert.

Susan:
But,

Susan:
you know,

Susan:
but we do get to sort of think about,

Susan:
you know,

Susan:
who is being admitted and do we have the supports necessary for those students?

Susan:
What do you think the obligation is of like a program like a PA program to ensure that the students they admit can afford to come?

Susan:
Or is there any?

Sarah:
Hmm.

Sarah:
I think that's a hard question because,

Sarah:
again,

Sarah:
you guys don't set the tuition.

Sarah:
And a lot of the times for PA schools,

Sarah:
since it's so competitive,

Sarah:
it requires people moving.

Sarah:
That is another cost in and of itself.

Sarah:
But I think what you guys did well is that I like that SHRS had opportunities for scholarships,

Sarah:
merit and need based.

Sarah:
I think I know I applied and I got one,

Sarah:
thankfully.

Sarah:
And,

Sarah:
you know,

Sarah:
to some people,

Sarah:
it's like,

Sarah:
oh,

Sarah:
it's only a measly three to four K.

Sarah:
But no,

Sarah:
sometimes that's that's your rent for two,

Sarah:
three months.

Sarah:
That's your groceries.

Sarah:
You can put that towards textbooks,

Sarah:
other costs.

Sarah:
So I think that is a good way to implement some form of support.

Sarah:
But I know in our class,

Sarah:
too,

Sarah:
in my cohort,

Sarah:
a lot of people that I spoke to,

Sarah:
they couldn't afford it.

Sarah:
A lot of people were,

Sarah:
again,

Sarah:
taking out loans for living as well.

Sarah:
So,

Sarah:
yeah,

Sarah:
it's a difficult question.

Sarah:
And unfortunately,

Sarah:
I think that's something that only the higher ups could really address.

Sarah:
And it comes down to tuition.

Susan:
Yeah.

Susan:
Yeah.

Susan:
Do you think anyone and I know I'm sort of asking you to speak on behalf of others,

Susan:
but I'm just curious.

Sarah:
maybe maybe this is a better way of asking were there moments um in your cohort where those students regretted coming um i i won't say regret coming but i will say we've had conversations about the return on interest of being a pa yeah and how the debt is just not worth it long term unfortunately i will say that i don't personally feel like that because i'm going to be working in New York City where the salary is a lot higher.

Sarah:
But again,

Sarah:
cost of living is also higher.

Sarah:
But I know for some people,

Sarah:
if they're going to be staying in different states that have a lower salary,

Sarah:
it might not be 100 percent worth it.

Sarah:
That conversation has come up.

Sarah:
But I haven't directly heard.

Sarah:
Oh,

Sarah:
I regret.

Sarah:
Yeah.

Sarah:
School just thinking long term and thinking about how tuition is going to continue to rise.

Sarah:
It's going to be even harder for people to get loans taken out federally,

Sarah:
that's a conversation that's unfortunately come up.

Susan:
Yeah.

Susan:
Yeah.

Susan:
It's,

Susan:
I mean,

Susan:
it's something we think about and,

Susan:
um,

Susan:
you know,

Susan:
I feel like for me,

Susan:
I want to let the individual applicant make that choice.

Susan:
Right.

Susan:
And,

Susan:
and not sort of say,

Susan:
well,

Susan:
I'm,

Susan:
you know,

Susan:
we're,

Susan:
we're going to deter students who need to take out loans,

Susan:
you know, Speaker 1: and,

Susan:
and private loans from being admitted because we can't ensure that they're going to be able to afford it.

Susan:
Do you know what I mean?

Susan:
But I think that that's hard.

Susan:
And I think that all we can do as a program is just be very upfront.

Susan:
Like this is what it's going to cost.

Susan:
These are the supports that are out there.

Susan:
And a lot of that is financially is going to need to come from federal and or private loans.

Sarah:
Yeah.

Sarah:
I mean,

Sarah:
I know,

Sarah:
I think I still think that the program did pretty good.

Sarah:
Like the food pantry,

Sarah:
I know it's helpful for a lot of people.

Sarah:
I knew some people used that as their breakfast,

Sarah:
their snacks in the middle of the day because they're cutting costs on groceries in some regard.

Sarah:
So that was very,

Sarah:
very helpful.

Sarah:
But again,

Sarah:
I think this is all just bigger picture.

Sarah:
And unfortunately,

Sarah:
I know as much as you may want to change this,

Sarah:
it really just comes down to the higher ups.

Sarah:
And I don't think that's something that could be addressed as of right now.

Sarah:
Yeah.

Susan:
So I know we've talked a lot about kind of your socioeconomic background and how that impacted your journey.

Susan:
What about being first gen?

Susan:
Like,

Susan:
can you tease those two apart?

Sarah:
Yes.

Sarah:
So I also have had this discourse and this controversy with my friends that so being first gen,

Sarah:
obviously,

Sarah:
what you guys know is you're the first in your generation to go to college,

Sarah:
first in your family to go to college.

Sarah:
You know,

Sarah:
big accomplishment.

Sarah:
but for me I feel like being first-gen and low-income is just like it really hits home because those are different experiences like I know people who they still they still have some form of privilege that other people don't have because their families maybe they didn't get a degree but they're still working a good stable job their parents maybe spoke English maybe their parents are of a certain you know if you're white you're not going to experience a certain level of that,

Sarah:
say,

Sarah:
another race might.

Sarah:
So for me,

Sarah:
first gen is still very important because I feel like I'm now breaking that cycle of poverty for my family.

Sarah:
So that is really what seals the deal for me.

Sarah:
But again,

Sarah:
I'm not saying this to kind of divide the first gen community.

Sarah:
I still think it's a huge accomplishment.

Sarah:
But for me,

Sarah:
the low-income part especially is just a major core of who I am.

Susan:
Who did you turn to or how did you navigate just applying to colleges,

Susan:
like,

Susan:
you know,

Susan:
your essays,

Susan:
the FAFSA?

Susan:
Like,

Susan:
where did you,

Susan:
what resources did you have?

Susan:
Or did you really just kind of figure it all out on your own?

Sarah:
So my sister,

Sarah:
luckily,

Sarah:
my older sister,

Sarah:
again,

Sarah:
she,

Sarah:
I feel like she should be sitting here too because,

Sarah:
you know,

Sarah:
she did the whole med school application all by herself.

Sarah:
So she was so helpful.

Sarah:
I really,

Sarah:
she was really just my go-to person.

Sarah:
Even some of my advisors in college,

Sarah:
I felt like I wasn't fully comfortable with because I didn't have the best grades.

Sarah:
You know,

Sarah:
I had pretty average grades for a pre-PA applicant.

Sarah:
So I just felt a little bit discouraged.

Sarah:
So I wouldn't really feel comfortable going to them about the fact that I'm applying to PA school.

Sarah:
I actually didn't tell anybody that I was applying to PA school besides my boyfriend and like two friends because I was like,

Sarah:
I'm just not gonna.

Susan:
Wait,

Susan:
like except for your family?

Sarah:
No,

Sarah:
I didn't even tell my family.

Sarah:
Yeah,

Sarah:
I just told my boyfriend and two friends.

Sarah:
What?

Sarah:
Yeah.

Sarah:
I was like,

Sarah:
if I get in,

Sarah:
I get in.

Sarah:
If I don't,

Sarah:
if I don't get in anywhere,

Sarah:
then I won't have to embarrass myself.

Sarah:
Oh,

Sarah:
my gosh.

Sarah:
Yeah.

Sarah:
So I was literally secretly applying to PA school,

Sarah:
secretly interviewing.

Sarah:
And I was like,

Sarah:
if I get in,

Sarah:
great.

Susan:
I didn't know.

Susan:
I was part of a giant secret when you interviewed.

Susan:
You were,

Susan:
yes.

Sarah:
I was in my basement.

Sarah:
I put my cats in different rooms.

Sarah:
I was like,

Sarah:
you guys cannot bother me during this huge undercover mission.

Sarah:
So,

Sarah:
yeah.

Susan:
So what did it feel like getting that first acceptance letter?

Susan:
Oh,

Sarah:
so it was actually Pitt,

Sarah:
again,

Sarah:
because you guys started in January.

Sarah:
So you guys were the first school to get back to me about a decision.

Sarah:
I remember I was at my job,

Sarah:
urgent care,

Sarah:
so slow.

Sarah:
There were no patients coming around.

Sarah:
And I get the call.

Sarah:
Or was it the email?

Sarah:
I think it was an email.

Sarah:
I don't remember.

Sarah:
Yeah,

Sarah:
it was an email.

Sarah:
So I just immediate,

Sarah:
like immediate tears,

Sarah:
you know,

Sarah:
because,

Sarah:
again,

Sarah:
this was a really big deal for me.

Sarah:
I again,

Sarah:
I applied to nursing school because I was like,

Sarah:
I need a backup.

Sarah:
I need something in case I don't get into PA school because of how competitive it is.

Sarah:
And I just called my mom and just like immediate tears.

Sarah:
I remember my mom,

Sarah:
too.

Sarah:
My mom was like choking up on the phone.

Sarah:
She's like,

Sarah:
oh,

Sarah:
I'm so proud of you.

Sarah:
Like you worked really hard.

Sarah:
And I just I don't know.

Sarah:
It was just just goosebumps,

Sarah:
you know.

Sarah:
and I told the PA who was there,

Sarah:
I was like,

Sarah:
oh my God,

Sarah:
I got into PA school.

Sarah:
And they're like,

Sarah:
what?

Sarah:
You're applying,

Sarah:
you're applying to PA school?

Sarah:
I thought you were,

Sarah:
I thought you got into nursing school.

Sarah:
And I even sent the deposit in and they were like,

Sarah:
what happened to that?

Sarah:
I was like,

Sarah:
oh,

Sarah:
that was a backup plan.

Sarah:
So just,

Sarah:
yeah.

Sarah:
Exhilarating.

Susan:
Oh my gosh.

Susan:
I just need to like marinate on that for a second because I think it's really hard when,

Susan:
you know,

Susan:
as the,

Susan:
as faculty,

Susan:
we're having these types of conversations.

Susan:
It's like,

Susan:
we're so far removed from that moment that you forget like what an incredible impact these decisions have on people's lives.

Susan:
Yeah.

Sarah:
Can I say something though?

Sarah:
I will say out of the interviews that I'd done,

Sarah:
I always felt like Pitt was just the best fit because I I just,

Sarah:
I feel like you can gauge when a school does not care so much about their students' backgrounds.

Sarah:
But I did not feel like that at all with the interview.

Sarah:
In fact,

Sarah:
I walked out of the interview and I was like,

Sarah:
that was good.

Sarah:
Like,

Sarah:
that went pretty good.

Sarah:
I feel like it was very reassuring,

Sarah:
very comforting.

Sarah:
The questions that you guys chose to ask,

Sarah:
too,

Sarah:
I feel like it really gave me a chance to speak about my story and why I want to go into medicine.

Sarah:
And I just,

Sarah:
I really appreciate the fact that you guys are trying to be mindful of all of your students' backgrounds,

Sarah:
including the ones who may be a little bit underrepresented.

Sarah:
Because I felt like that after my interview.

Sarah:
And compared to the other ones that happened after,

Sarah:
I was like,

Sarah:
oh,

Susan:
yeah.

Susan:
Oh,

Susan:
yeah.

Susan:
I didn't pay her to say that.

Susan:
I just want to be fully honest.

Susan:
No,

Sarah:
no.

Susan:
Tell me more about why our program is amazing.

Susan:
Yeah,

Susan:
I mean,

Susan:
I think what I also heard,

Susan:
which I think,

Susan:
and I don't mean to generalize,

Susan:
but I feel like it's come up as I've talked to different folks,

Susan:
is this idea of not letting families down and like putting the responsibility of representing your family on your shoulders.

Susan:
Like you didn't want to tell your family.

Susan:
As I'm hearing it,

Susan:
it's like you didn't want to tell your family because you didn't want them,

Susan:
you wanted to spare them the disappointment,

Susan:
right?

Sarah:
100%.

Susan:
And that in doing this career and in pursuing this path,

Susan:
you're not just doing it for you,

Susan:
but you're doing it to honor the work of that,

Susan:
of what your mom and your dad did.

Susan:
And I think that's something that is it's not talked about a lot,

Susan:
but it's an added pressure that I think is probably always kind of that you're carrying with you every day of PA school.

Susan:
And,

Susan:
you know,

Susan:
whatever you're not,

Susan:
not just PA school,

Susan:
but I think it's something that,

Susan:
you know,

Susan:
for someone like me.

Susan:
So I feel like,

Susan:
you know,

Susan:
I have a very different experience from you.

Susan:
Right.

Susan:
Like I am.

Susan:
well,

Susan:
first I'm white,

Susan:
so that makes things a little easier.

Susan:
But also,

Susan:
you know,

Susan:
my parents are both physicians,

Susan:
right?

Susan:
So like I grew up listening to weird patient stories at the dinner table and they were both first generation,

Susan:
but they had navigated the system well enough that like they were able to help me with that.

Susan:
And at least I was able to see like,

Susan:
oh,

Susan:
like someone else in my family has done this,

Susan:
right?

Susan:
So when I was in college and in PA school,

Susan:
I wasn't thinking about them,

Susan:
right?

Susan:
I was just thinking about me.

Susan:
And that's very different than someone who is thinking about I'm not,

Susan:
this is not just about me.

Susan:
This is about me.

Susan:
This is about my parents.

Susan:
This is about my grandparents.

Susan:
This is about all the people who have made sacrifices and worked really hard so that I can be here.

Susan:
And so if I don't do well,

Susan:
if I fail,

Susan:
then I've not only failed myself,

Susan:
I failed all of these people.

Susan:
And I'm like dishonoring that legacy.

Sarah:
No,

Sarah:
for sure.

Sarah:
Even Even with my pants,

Sarah:
I feel like.

Sarah:
Wait,

Sarah:
hold on.

Sarah:
I got to pause.

Susan:
So pants is.

Sarah:
Oh,

Sarah:
yes,

Sarah:
yes.

Susan:
The Physician Assistant National Certifying Exam.

Susan:
So it's a high stakes multiple choice exam that all graduates have to take in order to become certified PAs.

Susan:
So it is like the last big milestone to becoming a PA.

Susan:
And here we're talking about pressure right before.

Susan:
I'm sorry.

Susan:
No,

Sarah:
you're totally fine.

Sarah:
Okay.

Sarah:
Sorry.

Susan:
Go ahead.

Sarah:
But yeah,

Sarah:
so my exam's tomorrow.

Sarah:
And I still haven't told my parents that I'm taking it.

Sarah:
I feel confident.

Sarah:
I feel good.

Sarah:
But,

Sarah:
you know,

Sarah:
like you're saying,

Sarah:
that subconsciously that pressure is definitely there that if I don't pass,

Sarah:
I'm going to have to go and tell them,

Sarah:
hey,

Sarah:
I didn't pass.

Sarah:
So,

Sarah:
no,

Sarah:
you're so right.

Sarah:
It's just every day of my academic life,

Sarah:
I've just done everything for the sake of my parents,

Sarah:
you know.

Sarah:
And I would just hate that something came up in which I wasn't able to achieve that final step of becoming a PA.

Susan:
Do you think that that I mean,

Susan:
the point of this podcast is often to talk about those things that we carry every day that people don't see,

Susan:
but that like impact how we show up.

Susan:
And so I'm thinking about this responsibility that you're carrying.

Susan:
How did that show up in PA school?

Susan:
Like I'm thinking about,

Susan:
you know,

Susan:
maybe if you got a B instead of an A on a test or something,

Susan:
like you're taking that to heart more than somebody else might.

Susan:
Or does it not show up in that way?

Susan:
Like how does it show up?

Sarah:
No,

Sarah:
I agree with what you're saying completely.

Sarah:
I remember my first anatomy exam.

Sarah:
I was very,

Sarah:
very stressed out.

Sarah:
I was like,

Sarah:
this is the test.

Sarah:
This is the test that I'm going to fail.

Sarah:
And then it's just going to be over.

Sarah:
And everything ties back to my parents.

Sarah:
You know,

Sarah:
oh,

Sarah:
I'm taking out all these loans.

Sarah:
What if I don't do well in PA school?

Sarah:
What if I'm like flunked out of the program?

Sarah:
All this debt is for what?

Sarah:
You know,

Sarah:
and I think another reason,

Sarah:
PA school is so hard for everybody.

Sarah:
Like PA school is just impossible.

Sarah:
But for me,

Sarah:
the way I really was able to get through those really hard moments and force myself to keep studying,

Sarah:
force myself to stay up an extra hour to study was because I did have that in my mind.

Sarah:
Okay,

Sarah:
I have to go back home and I have to pass the pants and I have to start making money to like help alleviate some of the burden off of my parents.

Sarah:
And for me,

Sarah:
there's also that extra added layer because my parents are a little bit older.

Sarah:
So my mom,

Sarah:
she had some infertility problems.

Sarah:
And because of that,

Sarah:
my parents had to,

Sarah:
like,

Sarah:
try for a really long time.

Sarah:
It took them 10 years to finally have my older sister through IVF,

Sarah:
too.

Susan:
So,

Sarah:
you know,

Sarah:
because of that,

Sarah:
they're a little bit older.

Sarah:
Like,

Sarah:
they're in their 60s now.

Sarah:
So when I had to even move for pre-school,

Sarah:
it was this huge decision for me because I was like,

Sarah:
do I want to be away from my parents for two years?

Sarah:
What if they get a little bit sick?

Sarah:
What if something happens and I'm just not there?

Sarah:
I'm not able to just easily fly back.

Sarah:
You know,

Sarah:
that was something that always was in the back of my mind that I need to get to this program.

Sarah:
I need to get this degree.

Sarah:
And just before my parents pass,

Sarah:
that's something that I need to like show them,

Sarah:
you know,

Sarah:
their hard work paid off in this degree.

Sarah:
So it was just very intense and very anxiety inducing feelings.

Sarah:
Yeah,

Susan:
for sure.

Susan:
So were they at graduation?

Susan:
They were.

Susan:
Yes,

Sarah:
they were.

Sarah:
What was that like?

Sarah:
They were.

Sarah:
Oh,

Sarah:
God.

Sarah:
Like I was sitting there even before my name was called.

Sarah:
Just the tears were coming.

Sarah:
I was like,

Sarah:
I can't remember my makeup.

Sarah:
But it's just,

Sarah:
you know,

Sarah:
it's it was very heartwarming that my parents got to see that day.

Sarah:
We actually wrote a letter to our like letter to self.

Sarah:
Yeah.

Sarah:
To your future self.

Sarah:
So in that letter,

Sarah:
I wrote I was like,

Sarah:
I'm praying that my parents are healthy and happy enough to see this day.

Sarah:
and when it was time for me to reread that letter I was just you know just crying because yes they were able to see that day and they were able to feel like their hard work and all their sacrifices finally paid off so I'm just so I'm just so thankful for that I really am

Susan:
oh my gosh so the letters that she's referring to are um we have the the RPA students write letters to themselves like in the what first semester I think and then we have them open them and read them like at the very end of the program so like two years later and wow that's really powerful and I'm so so glad that your parents were able to be there um full circle moment

Sarah:
day she was like I did all that for this day and I was just like ah like oh my my eyes just wound up with tears it was you know because I was making fun of her I was like what was your problem like it was not eight o'clock and you're ruining my sleep and she was like well yeah I did it for this day to see you graduate and yeah yeah yeah yes what do you think sets first gen low ses how immigrant however you want to sort of students with similar experience to yours like what sets you apart how how

Susan:
do you show up differently in pa school what does that look like or or other school you know education jobs compared to somebody who hasn't had those experiences because there's a lot of layers there,

Susan:
right?

Susan:
Like there's,

Susan:
you know,

Susan:
there's being a,

Susan:
was it second generation?

Susan:
No,

Susan:
second generation immigrant,

Susan:
I think,

Susan:
right?

Susan:
Plus a first generation,

Susan:
you know,

Susan:
higher education person,

Susan:
plus coming from,

Susan:
you know,

Susan:
a lower socioeconomic background,

Susan:
kind of lumping all of that together.

Susan:
What strengths,

Susan:
I guess,

Susan:
did you come into PA school with?

Susan:
I know we've talked about a lot of the challenges,

Susan:
but like there's got to be some serious strength,

Susan:
too.

Sarah:
I think it's just given us a work ethic that you really I feel you can't teach that type of work ethic.

Sarah:
It's kind of just built in because you see your family struggle.

Sarah:
You know,

Sarah:
you have to do very,

Sarah:
very well to succeed because you want to do well for yourself.

Sarah:
Also give back to them that work ethic.

Sarah:
I really don't think that's something that you could that could be taught,

Sarah:
you know.

Sarah:
And all my friends,

Sarah:
too,

Sarah:
who are first gen,

Sarah:
like they are insanely hard.

Sarah:
Like they work so,

Sarah:
so hard.

Sarah:
Yeah.

Sarah:
And I'm just so proud of them.

Sarah:
And again,

Sarah:
I think that's something that's just kind of innate.

Sarah:
I also think in terms of medicine specifically,

Sarah:
it's made me very,

Sarah:
very compassionate.

Sarah:
I feel like that's exactly why I care a lot about underserved communities,

Sarah:
because my parents are people from underserved communities.

Sarah:
And,

Sarah:
you know,

Sarah:
it makes me a lot more patient.

Sarah:
I remember in the urgent care that I used to work out,

Sarah:
we had a lot of,

Sarah:
you know,

Sarah:
patients with low health literacy.

Sarah:
And it would get sometimes it's annoying when you have to explain to a patient the same thing over and over again.

Sarah:
But I found that,

Sarah:
you know,

Sarah:
again,

Sarah:
because my parents are from similar backgrounds,

Sarah:
it gave me that extra level of patience where I'm like,

Sarah:
OK,

Sarah:
this patient just doesn't know this.

Sarah:
They just don't know about their health condition.

Sarah:
So I have to really explain things to them at a third grade reader's level.

Sarah:
And that's OK,

Sarah:
because I want them to understand more for their personal health.

Sarah:
So I think that compassion,

Sarah:
too,

Sarah:
and that patience,

Sarah:
because I know in my family medicine rotation,

Sarah:
a lot of my patients reminded me of my parents.

Sarah:
I was like,

Sarah:
okay,

Sarah:
so I'm just going to approach things with you a little bit more differently because I feel for you.

Sarah:
And I also think that's something that just can't be taught.

Susan:
Well,

Susan:
you already know how to do that translation because you've had to do it probably a lot of your life with your parents.

Susan:
Whereas I don't even know what a third grade level would sound like.

Susan:
You can try to explain things in what we would call layman's terms.

Susan:
But I think that do we really know if that's actually like working or helpful?

Susan:
Obviously,

Susan:
there's a lot of patient education strategies we can use.

Susan:
But I think,

Susan:
yeah,

Susan:
it's like almost like another language.

Susan:
It's an ability to translate medicine in that way I think is really critical.

Sarah:
No,

Sarah:
for sure.

Sarah:
I just – and it's still hard for me.

Sarah:
You know,

Sarah:
again,

Sarah:
even as someone who I've done this with my parents,

Sarah:
even in PA school I have to call my mom and be like,

Sarah:
hey,

Sarah:
do you take your blood pressure medication?

Sarah:
No,

Sarah:
you can't just because your blood pressure is normal now doesn't mean you could stop taking it,

Sarah:
you know.

Sarah:
But it's still with certain conditions,

Sarah:
it's still hard.

Sarah:
It's still a learning process for everyone.

Sarah:
But I think it's just super important because end of the day,

Sarah:
your patient can tell when you are making that conscious effort to understand them and explain things to them.

Sarah:
And I think that can just really turn someone's world around.

Sarah:
Yeah.

Susan:
Yeah.

Susan:
So what are you most excited about next?

Susan:
We're going to assume tomorrow is going to be great.

Susan:
I'm not worried.

Susan:
Yeah.

Susan:
What are you most excited about?

Sarah:
Yeah,

Sarah:
I am most excited about going home and being with my family.

Sarah:
I again,

Sarah:
I really just think that's like a huge part of my identity,

Sarah:
being a daughter to two immigrant parents who are low income.

Sarah:
I'm very excited to go back home with them and just be with them for more than a week.

Sarah:
And then I have to go back to school.

Sarah:
We're also going to Pakistan during that gap where I'm waiting for my licensure.

Sarah:
So I'm super excited about that.

Sarah:
I'm going with my dad.

Sarah:
And my dad,

Sarah:
we've been to Pakistan a lot when I was younger,

Sarah:
but my dad wasn't able to go because he was working all the time.

Sarah:
So I really tried really hard to make this trip happen.

Sarah:
And I'm doing it not so that we're just visiting our family members in Pakistan,

Sarah:
but also I'm able to explore with my parents.

Sarah:
Like I want them to see parts of Pakistan that they've never seen before.

Sarah:
And I'm just super excited to give my parents somewhat of a vacation.

Sarah:
Even though it's our home country,

Sarah:
I'm just happy that my dad is tagging along with us on this trip because he's never been able to do that.

Sarah:
So very excited for that.

Susan:
So is this like your graduation gift to yourself and them?

Sarah:
Yes.

Susan:
Oh my gosh.

Sarah:
Yes.

Susan:
That is so beautiful.

Susan:
And talk about full circle.

Susan:
100%.

Sarah:
Yeah.

Sarah:
I just know it's going to be a lot of tears on that trip,

Sarah:
but I'm very excited for it.

Sarah:
And again,

Sarah:
it is for me,

Sarah:
but it's also for my parents because I just feel like everything that I do,

Sarah:
it's to honor them and their story,

Sarah:
you know?

Susan:
So what is one place that you're going to Pakistan that you haven't previously been?

Susan:
Like what's a place that you're exploring?

Sarah:
So we're from Lahore.

Sarah:
There's a lot of landmarks in Lahore that I haven't been to because again,

Sarah:
before it was just seeing my family,

Sarah:
staying in their house all the time.

Sarah:
So we're going to be doing that,

Sarah:
but we're also going to be going to the south of Pakistan,

Sarah:
which is Karachi.

Sarah:
And there's like a really beautiful beach there that everyone talks about.

Sarah:
that,

Sarah:
again,

Sarah:
I've never seen,

Sarah:
my parents haven't seen.

Sarah:
So I'm just very,

Sarah:
very excited for them to,

Sarah:
again,

Sarah:
see their home country,

Sarah:
but through a tourist lens,

Sarah:
you know,

Sarah:
and just explore things that they haven't seen before.

Sarah:
And I just hope it gives them some sort of peace and some sort of time off to relax,

Sarah:
you know?

Sarah:
Yeah.

Susan:
Yeah.

Susan:
Wow.

Susan:
What a beautiful,

Susan:
beautiful gift to give yourself and your family.

Susan:
That is amazing.

Susan:
When do you leave?

Sarah:
I leave in February.

Sarah:
I literally leave right after my birthday.

Sarah:
My birthday is January 31st.

Sarah:
My flight is February 1st at like 3 a.m.

Sarah:
So.

Susan:
All right.

Susan:
Yeah.

Susan:
Happy birthday to you.

Sarah:
Yeah.

Sarah:
Kind of like a birthday graduation full circle gift.

Susan:
Oh my gosh.

Susan:
In combination.

Susan:
Yeah.

Susan:
Oh I love it.

Susan:
I love it.

Susan:
I love it.

Susan:
What have we missed?

Sarah:
Let's think.

Sarah:
Let's think.

Sarah:
I think we did pretty good.

Sarah:
Nothing.

Sarah:
I'm trying to see what's coming to my mind.

Sarah:
yeah I think I kind of said everything that I've been wanting to say about my story my parents stories um I guess my main takeaway from this is really just that I not only want to honor myself and my parents but I want to make that space for students from similar backgrounds which is kind of why again I created SAPAN yeah because I feel like yeah no one really talks about what it's like to be low-income first and especially in the South Asian community and I want to make a space where people can

Sarah:
feel comfortable talking about those struggles and I have had students so many pre-PA students already come to me about hey I don't know if I can afford PA school how what did you do to make this a little bit easier on yourself you know or should I even go to PA school I don't know if I can afford it I really want to stay home and help my family.

Sarah:
So just being able to have those conversations,

Sarah:
it means a lot to me.

Sarah:
And I want to help people.

Sarah:
I want to help people honor their parents the same way that I did,

Sarah:
because I know it's a huge part of our identities.

Sarah:
So that's really my main takeaway for all of this.

Sarah:
Yeah.

Susan:
Well,

Susan:
and to be fair,

Susan:
we actually didn't talk about SAPAN.

Susan:
So I'm glad you mentioned it.

Susan:
If people wanted more information about it,

Susan:
where would they go?

Sarah:
Yeah,

Sarah:
so you can check out our Instagram,

Sarah:
sapa.network.

Sarah:
You can also send an email,

Sarah:
but we're still very much in the growing phase of our organization right now.

Sarah:
I think a lot of us are also clinical year students,

Sarah:
so we're all getting ready to graduate and take the pants,

Sarah:
so it's a little bit hectic right now.

Sarah:
But yeah,

Sarah:
check us out on Instagram,

Sarah:
sapa.network.

Sarah:
And you can also send an email to us.

Sarah:
I don't know if I could just say the email.

Susan:
We can put it in the show notes.

Susan:
Yes,

Susan:
sapa.net.org,

Sarah:
but we can also put it in the notes.

Sarah:
And yeah,

Sarah:
I think I'm someone who,

Sarah:
again,

Sarah:
I really like to recruit people who are in alignment with the mission,

Sarah:
which is,

Sarah:
again,

Sarah:
to raise awareness on South Asian patients with because we have a unique set of comorbidities because our diets are not that great and are just genetics in general.

Sarah:
But yeah,

Sarah:
I really want to give space to those students from similar backgrounds to me,

Sarah:
but also on a larger scale,

Sarah:
just acknowledge the fact that South Asians can do very,

Sarah:
very well for themselves in this country.

Sarah:
Yeah.

Susan:
Ah,

Susan:
awesome.

Susan:
Well,

Susan:
and just to be clear,

Susan:
because I know I asked this question myself,

Susan:
you do not have to be a part of the South Asian community to get involved in SAPAN and be a member.

Susan:
No,

Susan:
not at all.

Sarah:
Yes.

Sarah:
I really,

Sarah:
again,

Sarah:
I'm just looking for people who are in alignment with the mission.

Sarah:
If you really care about underserved communities,

Sarah:
if you care about mentoring pre-PA students,

Sarah:
you are a great fit.

Sarah:
Regardless of where you come from,

Sarah:
I just really want to,

Sarah:
again,

Sarah:
make a community where people are able to support one another.

Sarah:
Yeah.

Susan:
Do you have any upcoming events?

Susan:
I do,

Sarah:
but it's not until March.

Sarah:
So yeah,

Sarah:
it's exciting.

Sarah:
But in March,

Sarah:
we are going to this other organization called SIA,

Sarah:
South Asian Youth Action.

Sarah:
They also really care about helping marginalized high school students and kind of help them get ready for college,

Sarah:
think about higher education.

Sarah:
But it's not just South Asian students.

Sarah:
It's kind of all students who come from underrepresented backgrounds.

Sarah:
So we're going to be doing a career spotlight talk where we talk about the PA profession,

Sarah:
what it was like for us as underrepresented students going into the field.

Sarah:
So I'm very,

Sarah:
very excited for that.

Sarah:
And I actually used to be part of that program when I was in high school.

Sarah:
Oh,

Sarah:
my gosh.

Sarah:
So,

Sarah:
again,

Sarah:
it's going to be like a full circle moment for me.

Sarah:
I'm going to be like,

Sarah:
wow,

Sarah:
I was previously part of all these college-ready talks.

Sarah:
So I'm excited to go and see how much they've grown since I was part of their program.

Sarah:
Oh,

Susan:
my goodness.

Susan:
Well,

Susan:
I am so grateful that you chose our program.

Susan:
It has been such an honor and a pleasure to get to know you as a person,

Susan:
to see you grow as a PA.

Susan:
and I can't wait to see what you do next.

Susan:
Thank you so much for being here today.

Sarah:
Thank you so much.

Sarah:
Thank you for having me.

Sarah:
I really appreciate having the space but also having you as a mentor and someone that I can just utilize to get any advice,

Sarah:
just share my opinions with and I really,

Sarah:
really appreciate everything you've done for not only me but for the program too.

Sarah:
Thank you so much.

Susan:
Yeah,

Susan:
you better stay in touch.

Sarah:
I will.

Susan:
It's on the air now.

Sarah:
I will.

Sarah:
I like Pitt enough to stay in touch.

Susan:
She's publicly promising.

Sarah:
No,

Sarah:
I love the program enough to stay in touch.

Susan:
Good.

Sarah:
Yes.

Sarah:
Awesome.

Sarah:
Thank you so much.

Susan:
Thank you.

Susan:
Who We Are Inside is created and hosted by Susan Graff and Adriana Modesto Gomez-Sasilva in collaboration with Karthik Hariharan and John Ginnan.

Susan:
Thanks for being here. Speaker 1: ♪